[Drewch]

What do you guys think of this for a dry, summer stout?

I'm looking for light body, easy drinking but with a decent chocolate & roast presence — like a good coldbrew coffee.

I don't want a lot of sweetness; so no caramel/crystal.  But I want to fill in the middle malt & chocolate presence; hence the cookie and chocolate malts.

Vitals
Original Gravity: 1.045
Final Gravity: 1.010
IBU (Tinseth): 30
BU/GU: 0.67
Color: 31.5 SRM

Malts
(80%) — Rahr Pale Malt, 6-Row
(7%) — Viking Malt Pale Cookie — 9.9 °L
(5%) — Viking Malt Chocolate Dark — 337.8 °L
(5%) — Viking Malt Chocolate Light — 150.5 °L
(3%) — Weyermann Carafa III — 388.1 °L

Hops
(30 IBU) — CTZ — First Wort

[CounterPressure]

I listened to a podcast recently and it was probably one of the beersmith podcasts, they were discussing dark beers and mentioned that one of the problems making malty, chocolatey Porter and stout is that those grains are counterintuitive. We think of the light chocolate as light tasting and the dark chocolate malt as something that's going to be more overpowering, and that's actually the opposite of the truth. The light chocolate malts are far more harsh and not nearly as smooth as the much darker roasted versions.

I have not tried to do this yet but it's on my list of goals. I think when I do it I'm going to avoid the two row and pale malt which is what I would typically use, and use either Vienna or Munich as the base malt. And almost certainly a domestic Vienna or Munich because they are much more pronounced than the overseas counterparts. But that's just me thinking aloud and I know nothing about this. LOL. Like Denny says, think of the recipe in your head first. Well, I have a great idea in my head of what I think it should be. I just have no idea how to get there.


Funny you mentioned about staying away from the caramel malt. I recently made two batches of lager on the same day, and one of them I ended up throwing in a pound of 10 L because I needed a pound of grain to make the the grist weight equal and it was sitting here. The batch with the 10l is Head and Shoulders above the other batch. I just had people at the house yesterday unanimously confirming that.

[Megary]

I love a good, dry stout and I think the key is using a yeast that will attenuate the way you need.  I've had good luck with BRY-97.  What yeast do you plan on using?

I think the grain bill is fine, even if I'm partial to a healthy dose of flaked barley.

[Megary]

I listened to a podcast recently and it was probably one of the beersmith podcasts, they were discussing dark beers and mentioned that one of the problems making malty, chocolatey Porter and stout is that those grains are counterintuitive. We think of the light chocolate as light tasting and the dark chocolate malt as something that's going to be more overpowering, and that's actually the opposite of the truth. The light chocolate malts are far more harsh and not nearly as smooth as the much darker roasted versions.

That has not been my experience at all.  I absolutely find Pale Chocolate less harsh than the 400-500L Chocolate malts.  YMMV

[denny]

I listened to a podcast recently and it was probably one of the beersmith podcasts, they were discussing dark beers and mentioned that one of the problems making malty, chocolatey Porter and stout is that those grains are counterintuitive. We think of the light chocolate as light tasting and the dark chocolate malt as something that's going to be more overpowering, and that's actually the opposite of the truth. The light chocolate malts are far more harsh and not nearly as smooth as the much darker roasted versions.

That has not been my experience at all.  I absolutely find Pale Chocolate less harsh than the 400-500L Chocolate malts.  YMMV

Agreed. You can't believe everything you hear in podcasts.

[CounterPressure]

I don't recall which episode it was but it was definitely his podcast. I just remember he and his guest both in agreement about chocolate malt in particular having that counterintuitive character. I thought it might have been the episode from 6 months ago with Jeff Bloem from Murphy & Rude (#299) but I just can't relisten to every episode start to finish and I can't say where it was. Around the middle of that episode they do talk about not malting from about 80L to high 100s L because of issues within that range, but that's not the specific discussion I remember about chocolate malt.
Here's that one anyway.
https://beersmith.com/blog/2024/02/23/understanding-malts-with-jeff-bloem-beersmith-podcast-299/

[Drewch]

What yeast do you plan on using?

I've never used flaked barley — what do you get from it?

I've always used English yeasts before, but I've been quite pleased with Voss recently; so I was going to use that.

[Drewch]

I listened to a podcast recently and it was probably one of the beersmith podcasts, they were discussing dark beers and mentioned that one of the problems making malty, chocolatey Porter and stout is that those grains are counterintuitive. We think of the light chocolate as light tasting and the dark chocolate malt as something that's going to be more overpowering, and that's actually the opposite of the truth. The light chocolate malts are far more harsh and not nearly as smooth as the much darker roasted versions.

That has not been my experience at all.  I absolutely find Pale Chocolate less harsh than the 400-500L Chocolate malts.  YMMV

Agreed. You can't believe everything you hear in podcasts.

I know I've heard what CounterP said (“Stay out of the ‘harsh zone’”), but I know I've also heard what Megary & Denny added (“The ‘harsh zone’ is a myth”).

I think I'll leave them both in this time, and if I find it too harsh, I'll try a small batch each way (only dark choc vs. only light choc) and compare.

[Megary]

What yeast do you plan on using?

I've never used flaked barley — what do you get from it?

I've always used English yeasts before, but I've been quite pleased with Voss recently; so I was going to use that.

If I’m being honest, flaked barley brings not much to the table other than a sense of stout righteousness.   
It may help with body and head retention, but I’d never stake a dime on that. 

I’ve never used Voss, but if can attenuate that grist 75-80%, I’d call it a great choice.  I fear many of the English strains won’t get you better than 70%.  Maybe I’m making too big of a deal about attenuation leading to a dryer beer.  I’m only speaking from personal preference.  I feel my stouts jumped another level when I started using BRY-97 and saw lower final gravities.

[CounterPressure]

I think I'll leave them both in this time, and if I find it too harsh, I'll try a small batch each way (only dark choc vs. only light choc) and compare.

That's been on my to-do list ever since I heard that discussion. I also wonder if I'm not causing problems with my Mash pH because I think I used to make much nicer dark beers back when I simply took water out of the faucet and brewed with it. I'd like to try a mash pH of 5.6 or 5.7 and see if that doesn't remove some of the astringency that I get now.