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Author Topic: Wyeast Raising Prices  (Read 2311 times)

Offline John M

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2024, 02:53:58 pm »
That seems a bit backwards to me. I understand that as you get to know a yeast you understand how to get the most out of it in different conditions, but each yeast has a limited pallet and can't go beyond that. Would you use a lager yeast for a hefeweizen? Would you use a hefeweizen yeast for a lager? I can't believe that you have enough control over a yeast to get it to perform that far out of its comfort zone.

Unless you typically brew similar styles of beer. 

I do hope that he's not brewing a lager and a hefe with the same yeast. 😄
Exactly. Many of the great classic breweries only use one strain, especially in Europe. They just brew what they specialize in. With maybe the exception of an occasional one-off or seasonal beer. Of course, their styles are limited, but they have a house yeast and they brew styles that fit it.

I doubt Weinstephaner is wishing they could brew a Belgian Dubbel, or Chimay, a Munich Helles..
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2024, 11:27:09 am »
That seems a bit backwards to me. I understand that as you get to know a yeast you understand how to get the most out of it in different conditions, but each yeast has a limited pallet and can't go beyond that. Would you use a lager yeast for a hefeweizen? Would you use a hefeweizen yeast for a lager? I can't believe that you have enough control over a yeast to get it to perform that far out of its comfort zone.

I don't think anybody in this thread suggests trying to use yeast strains so expansively. OTOH a brewer could use one or two lager strains to brew pretty much every lager style out there. You could use a single English strain for most if not all English styles. Etc.

We don't spend all that much time talking about those decisions as homebrewers because we're spoiled for yeast choices and it's easier to buy a strain that fits a recipe than modify a recipe to fit a strain.
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Offline CounterPressure

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2024, 12:09:36 pm »
I don't think anybody in this thread suggests trying to use yeast strains so expansively. OTOH a brewer could use one or two lager strains to brew pretty much every lager style out there. You could use a single English strain for most if not all English styles. Etc.

We don't spend all that much time talking about those decisions as homebrewers because we're spoiled for yeast choices and it's easier to buy a strain that fits a recipe than modify a recipe to fit a strain.
I can only speak for myself, but if there were only 2 strains of yeast left, 34/70 and Nottingham, I'd be fine with it. I try countless yeast types because I can. Not because I'm forced to. Yes, if you want to brew certain styles they may require a different yeast.  Whatever...


What bothers me about all of it is the wanton gouging in the yeast industry.  Ok, I get it, if you make less yeast you need to charge a little more.  Consider this.
If I go to the grocery store and buy tiny little packets of yeast for bread.  They're $0.79 each or some insane number for each 7 gram pack.  I look at the "Big" container and that's some perverse amount of money. I won't even quote because it's been so long since I looked, I don't even know what it costs there any more.  So I go to King Arthur Flour online and a POUND of SAF Instant yeast is $6.99.  And if I go to the Amish grocery store locally, there it's $4.99.


Have you looked at what it costs for a pound of dry brewers yeast lately?  Anyone care to explain why bread yeast is 1/100th the price?  ** (Unless of course you buy at the grocery store in small packs...).
« Last Edit: July 15, 2024, 12:13:35 pm by CounterPressure »

Offline John M

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2024, 06:00:54 pm »
I don't think anybody in this thread suggests trying to use yeast strains so expansively. OTOH a brewer could use one or two lager strains to brew pretty much every lager style out there. You could use a single English strain for most if not all English styles. Etc.

We don't spend all that much time talking about those decisions as homebrewers because we're spoiled for yeast choices and it's easier to buy a strain that fits a recipe than modify a recipe to fit a strain.
I can only speak for myself, but if there were only 2 strains of yeast left, 34/70 and Nottingham, I'd be fine with it. I try countless yeast types because I can. Not because I'm forced to. Yes, if you want to brew certain styles they may require a different yeast.  Whatever...


What bothers me about all of it is the wanton gouging in the yeast industry.  Ok, I get it, if you make less yeast you need to charge a little more.  Consider this.
If I go to the grocery store and buy tiny little packets of yeast for bread.  They're $0.79 each or some insane number for each 7 gram pack.  I look at the "Big" container and that's some perverse amount of money. I won't even quote because it's been so long since I looked, I don't even know what it costs there any more.  So I go to King Arthur Flour online and a POUND of SAF Instant yeast is $6.99.  And if I go to the Amish grocery store locally, there it's $4.99.


Have you looked at what it costs for a pound of dry brewers yeast lately?  Anyone care to explain why bread yeast is 1/100th the price?  ** (Unless of course you buy at the grocery store in small packs...).
My guess is because bread yeast volume sales are WAY higher than brewer's yeast. If grocery stores carried brewer's yeast, I bet they would be throwing most of it away.
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Offline Drewch

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2024, 06:04:36 am »

I can't find the source for this (so I may be wildly off base), but I thought I heard somewhere that since bread yeast is meant to do its job in minutes to hours, the purity & off-flavor requirements for baker's yeast are looser than for brewer's yeast.  Looser tolerances → cheaper production → cheaper price.

And the aforementioned massive disparity in volume....
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Offline CounterPressure

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2024, 07:18:52 am »
My guess is because bread yeast volume sales are WAY higher than brewer's yeast. If grocery stores carried brewer's yeast, I bet they would be throwing most of it away.
I would think as far as dry yeast, it keeps almost forever in the freezer. Waste wouldn't be much of an issue.

I can't find the source for this (so I may be wildly off base), but I thought I heard somewhere that since bread yeast is meant to do its job in minutes to hours, the purity & off-flavor requirements for baker's yeast are looser than for brewer's yeast.  Looser tolerances → cheaper production → cheaper price.

And the aforementioned massive disparity in volume....
I make more beer than I do bread. And I bet I use 5-10x as much brewing yeast as I do bread yeast.  And that's with the ability to re-use the brewers yeast. I wonder about how much more bread yeast is manufactured.  Can't speak to the purity part of it, but the bread yeast I've used has tasted consistent since I was born.  Idk...


They've got quite a racket going when 11g of yeast is $7.99. (34-70)
WOW!  Went to check to see I had the price right, nope, 34-70 is now 10.49/11.5g pack now! That's insane. $414/Pound...


Ok, so I guess now if you use dry yeast, brace for impact!

Online Megary

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2024, 08:01:29 am »
My guess is because bread yeast volume sales are WAY higher than brewer's yeast. If grocery stores carried brewer's yeast, I bet they would be throwing most of it away.
I would think as far as dry yeast, it keeps almost forever in the freezer. Waste wouldn't be much of an issue.

I can't find the source for this (so I may be wildly off base), but I thought I heard somewhere that since bread yeast is meant to do its job in minutes to hours, the purity & off-flavor requirements for baker's yeast are looser than for brewer's yeast.  Looser tolerances → cheaper production → cheaper price.

And the aforementioned massive disparity in volume....
I make more beer than I do bread. And I bet I use 5-10x as much brewing yeast as I do bread yeast.  And that's with the ability to re-use the brewers yeast. I wonder about how much more bread yeast is manufactured.  Can't speak to the purity part of it, but the bread yeast I've used has tasted consistent since I was born.  Idk...


They've got quite a racket going when 11g of yeast is $7.99. (34-70)
WOW!  Went to check to see I had the price right, nope, 34-70 is now 10.49/11.5g pack now! That's insane. $414/Pound...


Ok, so I guess now if you use dry yeast, brace for impact!

34/70 - $6.95
https://www.keystonehomebrew.com/product/saflager-11-5gm-w-34-70-dry-lager-yeast/

You can find it on Amazon for $7-8 per pack depending on how many you buy.

$8
https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/saflager-w-34-70?variant=40723326337205&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz8GRgtyrhwMVSTQIBR1YGgF0EAQYAiABEgLZDPD_BwE

$7.49
https://yakimavalleyhops.com/products/fermentis-saflager-w-34-70-dry-lager-yeast

Offline Steve Ruch

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2024, 09:02:11 am »
My guess is because bread yeast volume sales are WAY higher than brewer's yeast. If grocery stores carried brewer's yeast, I bet they would be throwing most of it away.
I would think as far as dry yeast, it keeps almost forever in the freezer. Waste wouldn't be much of an issue.

I can't find the source for this (so I may be wildly off base), but I thought I heard somewhere that since bread yeast is meant to do its job in minutes to hours, the purity & off-flavor requirements for baker's yeast are looser than for brewer's yeast.  Looser tolerances → cheaper production → cheaper price.

And the aforementioned massive disparity in volume....
I make more beer than I do bread. And I bet I use 5-10x as much brewing yeast as I do bread yeast.  And that's with the ability to re-use the brewers yeast. I wonder about how much more bread yeast is manufactured.  Can't speak to the purity part of it, but the bread yeast I've used has tasted consistent since I was born.  Idk...


They've got quite a racket going when 11g of yeast is $7.99. (34-70)
WOW!  Went to check to see I had the price right, nope, 34-70 is now 10.49/11.5g pack now! That's insane. $414/Pound...


Ok, so I guess now if you use dry yeast, brace for impact!

34/70 - $6.95
https://www.keystonehomebrew.com/product/saflager-11-5gm-w-34-70-dry-lager-yeast/

You can find it on Amazon for $7-8 per pack depending on how many you buy.

$8
https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/saflager-w-34-70?variant=40723326337205&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz8GRgtyrhwMVSTQIBR1YGgF0EAQYAiABEgLZDPD_BwE

$7.49
https://yakimavalleyhops.com/products/fermentis-saflager-w-34-70-dry-lager-yeast
It's $4.69 at ritebrew
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Offline skyler

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2024, 09:57:37 am »
What it comes down to is that homebrewing, as a hobby and a business, has changed. This is a niche hobby that has shifted from a very niche “low budget” hobby for DIY-types and eccentrics aged 18-80 to a mainstream hobby (briefly) back to a niche hobby for a certain type of “craft beer enthusiasts,” which is itself a semi-affluent and increasingly old demographic. What I mean is this went from a hobby suitable for people with free time and very little money to a hobby for people who enjoy the finer things in life and can afford to pay for them, and this happened just after a major boom and bust as millennials got into and out of the hobby in huge numbers in the 2010s. Those niche yeast manufacturers competing with Wyeast and White Labs were operating in a world where new breweries were opening every day and tons of new people were getting into home brewing and didn’t want to bother with a yeast starter. Now they are staying alive by selling a premium product at a higher price point, except it isn’t really any better than White Labs or Wyeast, so we are looking at an environment where customers have proven they will spend >$20 on liquid yeast where a similar dry yeast recently cost $1.99. This is just a new customer base changing the market by demonstrating a willingness to spend much more for a perceived slight better product, and it really has implications for how the economy of this hobby works.

We are now in a hobby that is geared towards millennials with some money (like myself). We mostly all went to college and none of us know how to weld (metal shop and auto shop were cut from shrunken school budgets before most of us got to high school). We barely own tools and we can barely use a drill, let alone a jigsaw or a router. We may have DIY spirit, but not construction/handyman skills. We may earn $150k+ per year, but still not own homes that have backyards or private garages. The same people who sustain grainfather, brewzilla and the anvil foundry will pay $24.99 for a single-use pouch of yeast if it makes the most thiolized haziest freshest NEIPA. Or alternatively, they will spend $150 to brew 5 gallons of German Pilsner that would cost them $100 to buy because it is fun and they expect to pay for things they enjoy.

The “save money brewing your own craft beer” purpose of the hobby might have died with the rise of IPA. Unfortunately so did many great styles of American craft beer. That’s not to say none of us are trying to keep the budget down or save money brewing our own, but the needle has moved in this cottage industry. Unless or until Gen Z decides they want to brew dry yeast lagers all day and demand the cheapest possible products (like they do for clothing and electronics), this is going to be a business built around an aging, affluent, shrinking demographic. Expect things to get better and more expensive.

Offline CounterPressure

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2024, 11:02:21 am »
@Megary and Steve Ruch, Seeing as this is a very new development at MoreBeer, I suspect something similar is going to hit everywhere else pretty soon. For instance, last week MB was $8 like NB is now, but who's to say what NB will be next week. As to the others, I'd likely have to pay shipping and who's to say what price that puts me at then.  Often the 'base' price doesn't tell the whole story.  How much is it shipped and sitting in my fridge...

@Skyler, Interesting viewpoint.  I think it also involves laziness and the instant-gratification mindset people are programmed into.

I was at a family gathering over the weekend.  I have many nieces and nephews, and when I compare their current lives and life-paths to what mine was at the same age, they have 0 interests, 0 hobbies, and just about 0 skills. It's incredible. They had no issue drinking the 4 kegs of beer I brought to the picnic, but there's no chance they'd actually brew their own.

Online Megary

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2024, 11:45:41 am »
I have many nieces and nephews, and when I compare their current lives and life-paths to what mine was at the same age, they have 0 interests, 0 hobbies, and just about 0 skills. It's incredible. They had no issue drinking the 4 kegs of beer I brought to the picnic, but there's no chance they'd actually brew their own.

 ::)

And every one of my kids, nieces and nephews have many interests, hobbies and far more skills than I ever had.  It is incredible.  Just because their generation is different than mine, as mine was different from the ones past …and on and on and on and on… is pretty irrelevant.  Every generation is spoiled, instantly gratified, skillless, lazy, whatever.  Just ask the old folks, they’ll tell ya. 

Yeah, for me, that stuff gets pretty old.  Sorry.

Cheers!

Offline CounterPressure

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2024, 12:19:32 pm »
::)

And every one of my kids, nieces and nephews have many interests, hobbies and far more skills than I ever had.  It is incredible.  Just because their generation is different than mine, as mine was different from the ones past …and on and on and on and on… is pretty irrelevant.  Every generation is spoiled, instantly gratified, skillless, lazy, whatever.  Just ask the old folks, they’ll tell ya. 

Yeah, for me, that stuff gets pretty old.  Sorry.

Cheers!
Yea well, I have no idea what sorts of things other people have done.  There's not many who've done the number of things I have, so I'm less likely to be impressed.


At a family gathering over the weekend, my Nephew's girlfriend was there and we were talking about homes.  She'd been to a funeral reception at mine last year and I'd given them a tour of the place.  It's a BIG house, and I've been working on it for several years. At the time she'd said she'd love to get a place to fix up and own, and that was her goal.


Back to Saturday, she tells me she just bought a fixer-upper house and has been working on it.  We talked for a couple hours about various projects, shared pics of work that's been done or needs done, etc.  The one profound takeaway I got from that discussion was her saying, "Adam won't do renovation work."  I cannot begin to tell you how shocked/disappointed I was that his girlfriend wants to frame up a bathroom to do ceramic tile work, but is stuck doing it alone...  I just finished a bathroom that was gutted down to new rafters (floor and ceiling) and have tile for 3 more sitting waiting for me to install.  Schluter Ditra Heat floor, floor to ceiling tile, and every one is getting the same.  I told here I'd supply the laser, tile saw, any tools, and will help with whatever if she so wishes.  I know tile the first time can be a challenge, and he's damn sure not going to help.   


There were probably >50 people in attendance there, and I would guarantee I'm the only one who's ever installed ceramic tile.  Just one for-instance.

Offline denny

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2024, 12:26:10 pm »
I have many nieces and nephews, and when I compare their current lives and life-paths to what mine was at the same age, they have 0 interests, 0 hobbies, and just about 0 skills. It's incredible. They had no issue drinking the 4 kegs of beer I brought to the picnic, but there's no chance they'd actually brew their own.

 ::)

And every one of my kids, nieces and nephews have many interests, hobbies and far more skills than I ever had.  It is incredible.  Just because their generation is different than mine, as mine was different from the ones past …and on and on and on and on… is pretty irrelevant.  Every generation is spoiled, instantly gratified, skillless, lazy, whatever.  Just ask the old folks, they’ll tell ya. 

Yeah, for me, that stuff gets pretty old.  Sorry.

Cheers!

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Offline CounterPressure

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2024, 01:05:25 pm »
Oh, they have "Interests"; like vacations unloading piles of cash. I should have been more specific and said, interests in anything that has legitimate tangible value.  Not things that are a net financial negative.

Offline denny

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Re: Wyeast Raising Prices
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2024, 01:38:20 pm »
Oh, they have "Interests"; like vacations unloading piles of cash. I should have been more specific and said, interests in anything that has legitimate tangible value.  Not things that are a net financial negative.

you mean like homebrewing?  ;D
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