[denny]

In lagers, zero calcium is allowable since yeast flocculation can be accommodated in the lagering period. Keeping the calcium well below 50 ppm helps to keep the ferment from ending prematurely. If your lagers won't attenuate to the degree that the yeast report says it should, its probably because your water has too much calcium in it.

Wow, I never knew this. I have always been under the assumption that all fermentations benefitted from at least 50 PPM. Was I wrong, or is this a recent discovery?

I'd really be interested to learn more about this... any good resources? (If it's covered in the new Lager book, I just got it and am only a few pages into it so far...)

No, it's not a new discovery

[hopfenundmalz]

I brew many lagers these days. So what do I do?

1. I use RO water as my tap water is very alkaline. I add Gypsum and CaCl2 to get the calcium up, and adjust the SO4 and Cl levels depending on the style. More SO4 for a German Pilsner, more Cl for a Helles or Dunkel. Those water salts can be used by German brewers in the brewing liquor, as the RHG says "water" not which water, but they can't add to the mash. Rules y'all.

2. Some salts can be added to the kettle if I'm doing an IPA. and adding too much to the mash will screw up the pH.

3. I will use a gram scale to measure the additions, but I'm not obsessed with down to the last gram or fraction.

That's about it. Some Epsom salts sometimes, Pickling Lime for dark beers.

Many things depend on the beer. I brew LODO for Lagers that are mainly Pils malt. If I'm brewing an English ale using Pale Ale malt I don't.

Question for the group. How could plastic vs glass fermentets make a difference? I might speculate why, but did they say? I'm selling all my glass carboys, too dangerous for an old guy like me. I'm using plastic buckets and Stainless Steel now.

[Megary]

I always wondered how everyone knows what their mineral levels are if they don’t know what minerals are riding in on the malt itself?  Or do they?

I would be stunned if all malt had the same mineral content.  Surely maltster, terroir, process, grain variety etc. all play a part.

[CounterPressure]

Question for the group. How could plastic vs glass fermentets make a difference? I might speculate why, but did they say? I'm selling all my glass carboys, too dangerous for an old guy like me. I'm using plastic buckets and Stainless Steel now.

In the Brulosophy interview I linked above, he said this was likely due to the non-zero amount of oxygen that "can" pass through plastic, but can't in glass.  Been a while since I listened so I may be totally wrong there.  It wasn't enough difference to get him to switch from plastic fermenters to glass or ss though.

I always wondered how everyone knows what their mineral levels are if they don’t know what minerals are riding in on the malt itself?  Or do they?

I would be stunned if all malt had the same mineral content.  Surely maltster, terroir, process, grain variety etc. all play a part.

I think the malt is very predictable, and I doubt it's carrying many of the minerals we add to water (or that the water might already contain).

[hopfenundmalz]

I always wondered how everyone knows what their mineral levels are if they don’t know what minerals are riding in on the malt itself?  Or do they?

I would be stunned if all malt had the same mineral content.  Surely maltster, terroir, process, grain variety etc. all play a part.

The malt has high amounts of minerals, but those aren't available as those are in molecules and don't dissolve like the brewing salts.

[Megary]

I always wondered how everyone knows what their mineral levels are if they don’t know what minerals are riding in on the malt itself?  Or do they?

I would be stunned if all malt had the same mineral content.  Surely maltster, terroir, process, grain variety etc. all play a part.

The malt has high amounts of minerals, but those aren't available as those are in molecules and don't dissolve like the brewing salts.

Good to know.  But did I not read in Bru’n Water (or maybe Martin posted on here) that there is enough Calcium in Barley malt to be sufficient for mash purposes.  I certainly could be misremembering, or completely misunderstanding.

[dmtaylor]

Question for the group. How could plastic vs glass fermentets make a difference? I might speculate why, but did they say? I'm selling all my glass carboys, too dangerous for an old guy like me. I'm using plastic buckets and Stainless Steel now.

Plastic breathes too much.  Unlike glass or stainless, oxygen can get through plastic walls, and plastic lid of course.  And not just through the gap in the lid, but actually through the plastic itself.

My experience: Just yesterday I bottled what was left of a 5-gallon batch that I had split 3 ways into 3 different fermenters to try 3 different hops in the same wort.  Two were fermented in glass and one in plastic.  I usually ferment in glass these days but didn't have a good third vessel so I tried plastic.  One batch was oxidized to sh!t and I had to dump it out.  Guess which one.

[dmtaylor]

I always wondered how everyone knows what their mineral levels are if they don’t know what minerals are riding in on the malt itself?  Or do they?

I would be stunned if all malt had the same mineral content.  Surely maltster, terroir, process, grain variety etc. all play a part.

EXCELLENT questions.  Malt itself has LOTS of minerals.  And you're right -- every malt has different amounts.

It is for this reason that I don't overthink mineral additions in water anymore.  It's a friggin wasted effort a lot of the time.  Not always, but a lot of the time.

[Brew.Drink.Repeat.]

No, it's not a new discovery

Interesting, this is the first I've heard of it. Would really like to read more about it, as I'm brewing far more lagers than ales these days, but also curious if it affects ale fermentations as well?

Skimmed through the appropriate chapters, and the index, in the Lager book and see no mention whatsoever.

Any good articles / resources on this that I can check out?

[Brew.Drink.Repeat.]

Anyone?

[Cliffs]

Anyone?

I've heard it repeated several times by folks I consider authorities on the subject. take that for what its worth, but I'd take most things Martin says about water as gospel, he knows his stuff

[hopfenundmalz]

No, it's not a new discovery

Interesting, this is the first I've heard of it. Would really like to read more about it, as I'm brewing far more lagers than ales these days, but also curious if it affects ale fermentations as well?

Skimmed through the appropriate chapters, and the index, in the Lager book and see no mention whatsoever.

Any good articles / resources on this that I can check out?

You always see get the Calcium ppm up to aid flocculation which is one thing for ales to turn around quickly. It's not as important for Lagers, as long lagering times will drop the yeast. Enough time and cold enough temperature, 30⁰F, drop out chill haze.

Modern production lager breweries might go higher on the Ca ppm to reduce lagering time. Higher Ca ppm aids the enzymes conversion, which would reduce the mash times.
That might not be important to a traditional brewery that decocts.

The new lager book doesn't have enough detail on water in all of the recipes. Some are fully detailed. Some have nothing on water composition. Some say - we add xyz to our soft water, but nothing on how "soft" that water is.

Hope this helps. I know your missing HomebrewCon like I am this year.

[mabrungard]

Good to know.  But did I not read in Bru’n Water (or maybe Martin posted on here) that there is enough Calcium in Barley malt to be sufficient for mash purposes.  I certainly could be misremembering, or completely misunderstanding.

While malt contains a LOT of elements including the ions that we pay attention to in water, there is a big difference between the dissolved ions in water and the same elements that are in the compounds found in malt. Yes, there's plenty of calcium in malt to provide for the yeast nutrition, but there may not be enough calcium ions in the water to enhance enzymatic activity, precipitate oxalate, and control yeast flocculation.

The wort made with pure distilled water and the wort made with various salt additions are going to have almost the same elemental content if those worts are analyzed in a mass spectometer. The elements supplied by the malt are in way higher concentration than the salt content we add, but the dissolved salts have a different duty and a different effect. Brewing water salt additions are actually important and they can substantially change the beer.

[Brew.Drink.Repeat.]

Hope this helps. I know your missing HomebrewCon like I am this year.

I am... sorta.

Wasn't impressed with last year in San Diego at all -- it wasn't a good con in its own right, and when compared to San Diego 2015, one of the best I've ever attended, it was super-disappointing. Particularly the teeny-tiny space devoted for Club Night.

(Side note: that salsa beer from the AZ club was probably one of the single-best beers I've had at a conference!)

I'm going to Denver for GABF, but I'm just going to focus on GABF as I've never been. Probably won't even walk into the "homebrewers lounge" or whatever they're calling it.

-

The specific thing I'm still looking for more info on is this, which I've never heard before and in my (admittedly limited) Googling haven't found referenced anywhere:

Keeping the calcium well below 50 ppm helps to keep the ferment from ending prematurely. If your lagers won't attenuate to the degree that the yeast report says it should, its probably because your water has too much calcium in it.

[HighVoltageMan!]

I brew mostly lagers. My calcium target is usually 60-80ppm. I really don't have an issue with attenuation or early flocculation. I have found I can improve the consistency of attenuation by adding a zinc nutrient to the cold side (fermenter). My attenuation is usually in the low 80% with a Weihenstephaner yeast.

I'm sure this varies from yeast to yeast, but if calcium above 50 ppm causes under attenuation, I haven't experienced it. I think zinc has a bigger impact.