[Village Taphouse]

I have 2124 up and running right now.  I had a keg go down last night and in its place I put a helles that I brewed on April 9 and it was batch #3 with the 2124.  I pulled the first pint and it was hazy as it might be on the first pull.  I ditched that glass and got a new one and the second pull was hazy too which can happen.  I tried the beer and it had a very yeasty flavor.  Not totally surprising because it looked like it might have some yeast in it.  But I had another 2-3 glasses and they all looked hazy and had this overly-yeasty flavor.  It did not taste contaminated but it did not taste right.  I went to bed and realized that after that helles I made a red lager, a bock, another American Lager, a Czech Pils and another "gold lager".  If the yeast was at fault... all of those batches could be a problem.  This morning I put the helles keg back in the on-deck fridge and took the American Lager and put it into the draft fridge (helles was #3, this American Lager was #4)... the American Lager is fine.  Clear, tastes good, etc.  That's a big relief but why is the helles this way?   

[brewthru]

What was the FG? Did fermentation totally finish or did the 2124 stall out?

How was the Helles fined?
According to Wyeast https://wyeastlab.com/product/bohemian-lager/
Flocculation is low/medium. Therefore, you're going to need some help getting the Helles clear.

Is the Helles turbid due to particles or for some other reason?

[ynotbrusum]

FWIW, occasionally I will get a batch that doesn’t present clear soon enough.  I just treat that keg as a bright tank and rack off of it to another keg after a couple weeks (without moving the original serving keg/bright tank - i.e., via CO2 push).  Another week or so usually gets me clear beer.  I would note that I ferment under pressure and transfer from the fermenter under CO2 and use a floating dip tube in the fermenter, so after fermentation is completed (measured by Tilt hydrometer in the fermenter - no change for 3 days) I cold crash and transfer to the initial keg, which is usually pretty clear at that point, so I rarely have a stubborn haze that won’t clear.  My brewing process involves Brewtan B in the strike water and again at late boil, then whirlfloc a few minutes left in the boil with yeast nutrient as the last add to the boil with the late hops.

I must admit that whenever I serve away from home, I do a keg to keg transfer to try to assure clear beer in the transport. All kegs are sanitizer CO2-purged before storage at home, as well.  Probably more than anyone wants to hear, but it is what I do.  If all else fails, I call it a Zoigl or Zwickel beer!

[BrewBama]

When something strange like this happens I chalk it up to a natural process that we try to control and use to our advantage but sometimes nature has its own idea and chooses not to cooperate.

[denny]

When something strange like this happens I chalk it up to a natural process that we try to control and use to our advantage but sometimes nature has its own idea and chooses not to cooperate.

Great way to look at it.

[Village Taphouse]

Thanks guys.  I ended up putting this beer back in the "on-deck" fridge and I also hit it with a gel solution (and it was probably hit with a gel solution originally).  I will check it again soon.  In the meantime I have another very pale beer on tap that is good but also mildly hazy.  I think I may have mentioned this to BrewBama at one point because I'm using this "simplified" method to get a good mash pH... Could I make a very pale batch of beer and whiff on pH because the amount of acid I add to the strike water is not enough to lower the pH to proper mash levels?  I'm leaning towards adding a smidge more acid on beers that are very pale (both of these beers are quite pale) or... making sure that my gold lagers have a bit more color to them by adding Vienna, Munich, Copper Malt, etc.  All of my beers with more color are okay.  It seems reasonable to believe that a 3-4 SRM beer may require a bit more pH sorcery but I'm grabbing at straws. 

[majorvices]

Since you harvested the yeast from the bottom (I'm assuming) you selected the flocculant cell and left the powdery behind. Maybe.

[HighVoltageMan!]

2124 doesn’t always clear like it should, especially if it’s repitched. I use that yeast a lot and it’s one of the best all-around yeast for European lagers.

Most times it’s quick to clear, but other times it just hangs in there. It’s not as flocculant as 34/70. Nothing strange going on at all with your beer.

[Village Taphouse]

2124 doesn’t always clear like it should, especially if it’s repitched. I use that yeast a lot and it’s one of the best all-around yeast for European lagers.

Most times it’s quick to clear, but other times it just hangs in there. It’s not as flocculant as 34/70. Nothing strange going on at all with your beer.

You're right on that and 2124 is also one of MY favorite strains.  I think it might be the PIN on one of my debit cards.    As a way to get a little more verification, I also have a Red Lager in the on-deck fridge (made with 2124) and also a bock (SRM on these is around 12) and I am fermenting the last 2124 batch now (a sort of Vienna Lager) and that beer has come color too.  If all of those batches are clear and tasty, I might just have to assume that the darker grains brought my pH into a better spot and these very pale beers ended up mashing at a slightly higher pH than they should.  It's not definitive but it could point to something.  I appreciate the reply. 

[Village Taphouse]

Update:  I'm drinking this beer this evening.  The flavor is good and the clarity seems to be getting better... especially as the beer warms which suggests chill haze.  It's actually very good though.  No flavor issues at all, just the haze.  I expect the last half of the keg to be clearer. 

[chinaski]

Since you harvested the yeast from the bottom (I'm assuming) you selected the flocculant cell and left the powdery behind. Maybe.

I second this selection hypothesis- perhaps the differences between these beers is how you recovered yeast for the subsequent fermentations.

[Village Taphouse]

When I harvest, I transfer from the fermenter and then have a sanitized funnel, flask, etc. ready to go.  Open the fermenter and swirl it like crazy to loosen as much yeast as possible and get it to mix with the small amount of beer in there.  Pour directly into the funnel/flask, cover with sanitized foil and place in the fridge.  I typically do this the day before I brew so the yeast is generally ready for action.  By the next day I see a clear(ish) layer of beer on top which I typically pour out.  Then check the level... it's usually around 400ml of slurry.  If you go back to that "overpitching" thread in the yeast section I mentioned that I typically try to pitch around half of that.  200ml.  Could the healthiest and most flocculant cells still be stuck on the bottom of the fermenter when I'm harvesting?  For sure that's possible.  These issues are pretty rare and I thought "pH" because this beer is SO pale.  More homework to be done.  Cheers Beerheads.   

[brewthru]

2124 doesn’t always clear like it should, especially if it’s repitched.

Also, in my experience, repitching 2124 makes it more and more difficult to reach predicted FG.

1st 2124 pitch and my FG is spot on. 2nd 2124 pitch and the FG is higher than expected. 34d 2124 and the FG is even higher.

[ynotbrusum]

2124 doesn’t always clear like it should, especially if it’s repitched.

Also, in my experience, repitching 2124 makes it more and more difficult to reach predicted FG.

1st 2124 pitch and my FG is spot on. 2nd 2124 pitch and the FG is higher than expected. 34d 2124 and the FG is even higher.

That is interesting and not at all in line with my experience.  Are you adequately feeding yeast nutrient with each batch and aerating well?  Just thinking out loud....

[Village Taphouse]

Yeah, I haven't had that issue either and I used 2124 on EIGHT separate batches on this run.

Here's an update:  The helles was put back into the on-deck fridge and hit with a gel solution (again) to see if I could get it to drop out.  Meanwhile the American Lager that I put on tap started out in a similar fashion but it wasn't quite as yeasty or hazy but it was close.  As that beer has been consumed the beer is much better, smoother and clearer so I have hopes for this helles.