[The Beer Dad]

Hi All, I have some questions: 

In his book: “How to Brew”, by John Palmer, he introduces the concept of the beer cube. On how the Sulfate to Chloride ratio affects beer flavor, how residual alkalinity affects beer color, and how calcium affects beer structure.

He uses three terms of soft, medium, and firm for “beer structure.”

What does he mean by beer structure? Mouth feel?

And what are the examples of beer that would be soft, medium, and firm?

I have never heard of the term beer structure!!

I know that I can just play with Beer Smith to get a water style and an output for the type of beer style I need and it will give me recommended concentrations of salts to add.

But I have a inquisitive mind where I like to have a "feel" of what goes on before I trust software. Old school, but I need to know if I change 1 thing how it affects the big picture.

In his "How to Brew" book, he further states that there are 3 tools for adjusting water to suit the style of beer: "The first is adjusting PH via RA. The second is adjusting the levels of sulfate an chloride. The third is adjusting the total dissolved solids, but this should only be addressed after adjusting the calcium ion concentration and RA." Is he talking about Total Dissolved Solids for Beer Structure?

In one of Brad Smith's (Beer Smith) podcasts with John Palmer as a guest, Podcast No. 237, John states that only 2 beers qualify for the "Firm" beer structure: "Dortmunder Export" and "Burton Pale Ale"; the rest are either Soft or Medium. He states that 50 ppm of Ca gives a soft water profile or Beer Profile; 100 ppm for a Medium amount of mineral structure. So according to that podcast it must be the water profile in terms of "Hardness" of "Softness" as "Soft", "Medium" and "Firm". I have never heard or read of this description before anywhere. It does not make sense but I need to read it again and listen to the pod cast again and again. Apparently he thinks it is important!!

Don't mean to get in the weeds, but I'm just trying to get a basic understanding of brewing water chemistry and the effects of salt additions an pH.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[majorvices]

The two most important things to concentrate on are alkalinity and the pH of the mash. Water alkalinity is the key to making pH adjustments. Any water below 150ppm is best for making pale to amber beers (the lower the alkalinity, the more suitable for pale) and over 150ppm amber to dark beers (the higher the alkalinity, the better for dark beers).

Of course, you can make any color beer you want out of water with any alkalinity, the difference is that you will need either an acid or base to strike the ideal pH. For pale beers and, say, a pH of 5.4 you will need less acid to target that pH with water low in alkalinity. For dark beers and, say, a pH of 5.4, you will need less sodium bicarbonate/calcium carbonate to make pH adjustments on dark beers (remember, dark malts are more acidic than pale malts and will further lower the pH of the mash--hence, the need for higher alkaline water). Using less acid/base means less flavor impacts from those extra ingredients--which is why the alkalinity of your water is so important.

The easiest way to lower your water's alkalinity is to dilute it with distilled or RO. If your water's alkalinity is 100, but you want it at 50, just dilute the water 50/50. The easiest way to raise you water's alkalinity is with sodium bicarbonate and, too some extent, calcium carbonate.

The rest of the salts are just favoring. Calcium chloride highlights malt and "sweetness" while Sulfate highlights hops and bitterness.

When people get into vague descriptions such as "beer structure" it gets difficult to understand what exactly they are talking about. The best thing a brewer can do is get their pH right by targeting the pH via their water's alkalinity. Then brew a lot and play around with salts to see what you like best. Using water chemistry software is an extremely valuable tool to do this.

[dmtaylor]

...

[denny]

I would suggest you contact John directly. He's a great guy and always happy to chat. Like you, the rest of us are only guessing. john@howtobrew.com.

[denny]

The two most important things to concentrate on are alkalinity and the pH of the mash. Water alkalinity is the key to making pH adjustments. Any water below 150ppm is best for making pale to amber beers (the lower the alkalinity, the more suitable for pale) and over 150ppm amber to dark beers (the higher the alkalinity, the better for dark beers).

Of course, you can make any color beer you want out of water with any alkalinity, the difference is that you will need either an acid or base to strike the ideal pH. For pale beers and, say, a pH of 5.4 you will need less acid to target that pH with water low in alkalinity. For dark beers and, say, a pH of 5.4, you will need less sodium bicarbonate/calcium carbonate to make pH adjustments on dark beers (remember, dark malts are more acidic than pale malts and will further lower the pH of the mash--hence, the need for higher alkaline water). Using less acid/base means less flavor impacts from those extra ingredients--which is why the alkalinity of your water is so important.

The easiest way to lower your water's alkalinity is to dilute it with distilled or RO. If your water's alkalinity is 100, but you want it at 50, just dilute the water 50/50. The easiest way to raise you water's alkalinity is with sodium bicarbonate and, too some extent, calcium carbonate.

The rest of the salts are just favoring. Calcium chloride highlights malt and "sweetness" while Sulfate highlights hops and bitterness.

When people get into vague descriptions such as "beer structure" it gets difficult to understand what exactly they are talking about. The best thing a brewer can do is get their pH right by targeting the pH via their water's alkalinity. Then brew a lot and play around with salts to see what you like best. Using water chemistry software is an extremely valuable tool to do this.

My approach is the opposite. Since salts will affect pH, I add salts first, see what that does to pH, then adjust pH from there.  The entire process is detailed in Simple Homebrewing.

[majorvices]

Interesting--since salts only have minimal effect on lowering the pH but major affect on flavor, I treat them as flavoring only. That said, I don't drive too much in too flavoring salts. Either way should work!

[reverseapachemaster]

The book tries to create a common language to discuss water chemistry but it never really caught on. I can't recall anybody using much of it outside of discussing the book. It's confusing in part because he borrows terms like structure from other places (in that case, winemaking) but then uses the terms entirely different.

Using these nebulous terms makes it hard to understand water chemistry subjects and complicates the topic for people new to all grain or thinking about water chemistry. Topics like structure are like focusing on perfecting the seasoning when you first need to learn how to cook the steak.

IMO a much better resource to understand water chemistry is Martin Brungard's excellent Bru'n Water. His website has an extensively long and technical explanation (https://www.brunwater.com/water-knowledge) but you can download the free version of his software which has a shorter but still technical discussion of water chemistry. The software is a good way to get hands on with the topic.

[denny]

Interesting--since salts only have minimal effect on lowering the pH but major affect on flavor, I treat them as flavoring only. That said, I don't drive too much in too flavoring salts. Either way should work!

Agreed, the effect is minimal. But since there is an effect, I decided to take it into account like that.

[denny]

The book tries to create a common language to discuss water chemistry but it never really caught on. I can't recall anybody using much of it outside of discussing the book. It's confusing in part because he borrows terms like structure from other places (in that case, winemaking) but then uses the terms entirely different.

Using these nebulous terms makes it hard to understand water chemistry subjects and complicates the topic for people new to all grain or thinking about water chemistry. Topics like structure are like focusing on perfecting the seasoning when you first need to learn how to cook the steak.

IMO a much better resource to understand water chemistry is Martin Brungard's excellent Bru'n Water. His website has an extensively long and technical explanation (https://www.brunwater.com/water-knowledge) but you can download the free version of his software which has a shorter but still technical discussion of water chemistry. The software is a good way to get hands on with the topic.

Completely agree on the Brunwater water knowledge page.  Everything you need to know in a concise understandable form

[erockrph]

The book tries to create a common language to discuss water chemistry but it never really caught on. I can't recall anybody using much of it outside of discussing the book. It's confusing in part because he borrows terms like structure from other places (in that case, winemaking) but then uses the terms entirely different.

Using these nebulous terms makes it hard to understand water chemistry subjects and complicates the topic for people new to all grain or thinking about water chemistry. Topics like structure are like focusing on perfecting the seasoning when you first need to learn how to cook the steak.

IMO a much better resource to understand water chemistry is Martin Brungard's excellent Bru'n Water. His website has an extensively long and technical explanation (https://www.brunwater.com/water-knowledge) but you can download the free version of his software which has a shorter but still technical discussion of water chemistry. The software is a good way to get hands on with the topic.

Completely agree on the Brunwater water knowledge page.  Everything you need to know in a concise understandable form

I'll second that! While John Palmer literally wrote the book on homebrewing and has forgotten more about water than I will probably ever know, his attempt to take the chemistry out of water chemistry actually makes it more confusing in my opinion. The basic chemistry is pretty simple, and Martin's approach is pretty easy to understand.

When I try to read into Palmer's "beer structure" concept, it seems like he is referring to mineralization. The two styles being mentioned as "firm" are styles that typically have a high mineral content.

I've done a lot of experimenting with water over the years, using Bru'nwater as a guide. Personally, I've settled in on two basic mineral profiles that fit my tastes and work for 95% of the beers I brew. But I'd start off using the Bru'nwater spreadsheet if you're going to start playing with water adjustments in your beer. Generalizations such as soft/medium/firm are less useful than actual numbers (ppm, pH, etc.) when comparing changes you make from one batch to another, and Bru'nwater makes that easy to see.

[goose]

To add a new twist to this thread, I have noticed that for my lighter beers, my pH has tended to be a bit higher than what Bru'nWater predicts, in some cases over 5.6 (when Martin's program predicts maybe 5.3).  This has caused me to start using some acid malt to correct the pH in my mash to the desired value.  I use R.O. water here and add the necessary minerals to get the desired water profile.

I am starting to think that the difference might be from the variety of base malt I am using in the beer (I use a pale malt from a local malster, West Branch, which is now going out of the malting business, long story).  I am going to test this theory in more detail when I run out of the base malt and switch to another malster, probably Rahr, although it will be a while since I just bought a bag of West Branch Pale malt before they stopped selling malt. BTW this malt has been quite popular with many of the local craft breweries around here.

[Cliffs]

The book tries to create a common language to discuss water chemistry but it never really caught on. I can't recall anybody using much of it outside of discussing the book. It's confusing in part because he borrows terms like structure from other places (in that case, winemaking) but then uses the terms entirely different.

Using these nebulous terms makes it hard to understand water chemistry subjects and complicates the topic for people new to all grain or thinking about water chemistry. Topics like structure are like focusing on perfecting the seasoning when you first need to learn how to cook the steak.

IMO a much better resource to understand water chemistry is Martin Brungard's excellent Bru'n Water. His website has an extensively long and technical explanation (https://www.brunwater.com/water-knowledge) but you can download the free version of his software which has a shorter but still technical discussion of water chemistry. The software is a good way to get hands on with the topic.

Completely agree on the Brunwater water knowledge page.  Everything you need to know in a concise understandable form

I'll second that! While John Palmer literally wrote the book on homebrewing and has forgotten more about water than I will probably ever know, his attempt to take the chemistry out of water chemistry actually makes it more confusing in my opinion. The basic chemistry is pretty simple, and Martin's approach is pretty easy to understand.

When I try to read into Palmer's "beer structure" concept, it seems like he is referring to mineralization. The two styles being mentioned as "firm" are styles that typically have a high mineral content.

I've done a lot of experimenting with water over the years, using Bru'nwater as a guide. Personally, I've settled in on two basic mineral profiles that fit my tastes and work for 95% of the beers I brew. But I'd start off using the Bru'nwater spreadsheet if you're going to start playing with water adjustments in your beer. Generalizations such as soft/medium/firm are less useful than actual numbers (ppm, pH, etc.) when comparing changes you make from one batch to another, and Bru'nwater makes that easy to see.

same.

[Megary]

Interesting--since salts only have minimal effect on lowering the pH but major affect on flavor, I treat them as flavoring only. That said, I don't drive too much in too flavoring salts. Either way should work!

I use my house well water only for brewing.  It leans slightly hard.

I’ve tried a) adding salts and acid to the mash and b) acid only to the mash with salts in the boil.  I haven’t been able to tell a difference in the finished beer.  I’ve gone back to everything all at once as my water is heating up because it’s the easiest.

Does anyone add their salts past the boil?  Maybe the affect on flavor is greater when added later on down the line?

[majorvices]

Interesting--since salts only have minimal effect on lowering the pH but major affect on flavor, I treat them as flavoring only. That said, I don't drive too much in too flavoring salts. Either way should work!

I use my house well water only for brewing.  It leans slightly hard.

I’ve tried a) adding salts and acid to the mash and b) acid only to the mash with salts in the boil.  I haven’t been able to tell a difference in the finished beer.  I’ve gone back to everything all at once as my water is heating up because it’s the easiest.

Does anyone add their salts past the boil?  Maybe the affect on flavor is greater when added later on down the line?

If your water is already hard ("minerally") then it maybe difficult to pick up flavors. Acid is a pH adjustment, and not used for flavoring. Lactic acid can leave an unpleasant "twang" behind if too much is used. Phosphoric acid contributes much less flavor since, during the mash, malt releases phosphates anyway.

[Megary]

Interesting--since salts only have minimal effect on lowering the pH but major affect on flavor, I treat them as flavoring only. That said, I don't drive too much in too flavoring salts. Either way should work!

I use my house well water only for brewing.  It leans slightly hard.

I’ve tried a) adding salts and acid to the mash and b) acid only to the mash with salts in the boil.  I haven’t been able to tell a difference in the finished beer.  I’ve gone back to everything all at once as my water is heating up because it’s the easiest.

Does anyone add their salts past the boil?  Maybe the affect on flavor is greater when added later on down the line?

If your water is already hard ("minerally") then it maybe difficult to pick up flavors. Acid is a pH adjustment, and not used for flavoring. Lactic acid can leave an unpleasant "twang" behind if too much is used. Phosphoric acid contributes much less flavor since, during the mash, malt releases phosphates anyway.

Yes, acid (lactic) only in the mash for pH adjustment.

But I’m wondering if I added say gypsum or CaCl to the keg instead of on the hot side…maybe I’d notice their flavor contributions more.