[Village Taphouse]

I made four ales with S-04 over the past few months... Cream Ale, Pub Ale, Pale Ale, American Wheat.  I know S-04 will produce diacetyl so I tried very much to avoid it by moving the fermenter to a warm spot and rousing things occasionally.  The Cream Ale had a very small amount of diacetyl and sometimes I couldn't pick it up which is good.  The Pub Ale was put on tap this past week and went from grain to keg in 6 days... three of those days were kept warm.  I had a couple glasses of it Friday night and again yesterday and only on the last glass did I pick some up.  Very faint.  The other two are still in the "on-deck" fridge and on both of those I left the beer in the fermenter longer and kept it warmer longer as well.  So the question:  I like the character of S-04 a lot.  I like how quickly it starts and ferments and it's bready notes are really nice to me.  Can someone suggest another strain that has a similar character but is less likely to produce diacetyl?  I did use BRY-97 awhile back and there was no diacetyl but I thought the character was a little boring.  Cheers Beerheads.   

[tommymorris]

I have a lot better luck with 10 day single vessel fermentations for all my beers.  I have tried to rush things and been burned too often.

Even though ales get fermented in the 60’s, English yeasts sometimes flocculate before they clean up the diacetyl, so I try to be patient.

[tommymorris]

I have a lot better luck with 10 day single vessel fermentations for all my beers.  I have tried to rush things and been burned too often.

Even though ales get fermented in the 60’s, English yeasts sometimes flocculate before they clean up the diacetyl, so I try to be patient.

PS. To answer your question. I really like Verdant IPA. It is an English yeast. It attenuates like Bry-97 but has fruity character. It doesn’t have that breadiness though.

[dmtaylor]

I haven't gotten diacetyl from S-04.  Hmm.  Perhaps all you need is patience, keeping the beer conditioning warm for a couple of weeks before chilling it down.

You might enjoy Lallemand Koln.  However, avoid Fermentis K-97 -- it is NOT the same, and is far inferior, problems clearing, and an odd tartness.

[BrewBama]

I’ve not had diacetyl from S-04.  I might be blind to it. …but then again I probably wouldn’t know it unless it bit me in the butt.

For less than $1 per 5 gal batch, ALDC, or alpha acetolactate decarboxylase, is a helpful enzyme that can be added at yeast pitching or along with your dry hops to limit the production of Diacetyl to protect your finished beer from off-flavors and reduce the conditioning time needed before its ready to bottle or keg.

[Iliff Ave]

I have a lot better luck with 10 day single vessel fermentations for all my beers.  I have tried to rush things and been burned too often.

Even though ales get fermented in the 60’s, English yeasts sometimes flocculate before they clean up the diacetyl, so I try to be patient.

PS. To answer your question. I really like Verdant IPA. It is an English yeast. It attenuates like Bry-97 but has fruity character. It doesn’t have that breadiness though.

Any idea how verdant compares to east coast/New England?

[tommymorris]

I have a lot better luck with 10 day single vessel fermentations for all my beers.  I have tried to rush things and been burned too often.

Even though ales get fermented in the 60’s, English yeasts sometimes flocculate before they clean up the diacetyl, so I try to be patient.

PS. To answer your question. I really like Verdant IPA. It is an English yeast. It attenuates like Bry-97 but has fruity character. It doesn’t have that breadiness though.

Any idea how verdant compares to east coast/New England?

I have used Verdant for 6-7 beers. I have made Ambers, IPA, APA, ordinary bitter, and a blonde ale. All were great. To me the main distinguishing feature was the beers were dry and crisp with a fruity finish. WLP002/WY1968 are not dry and crisp. So, if that is your reference for English yeast you could be disappointed. I think I could taste the fruity finish in the blonde and bitter. The others I think the hops were enhanced by the yeast, but I could not taste the yeast specifically. So, I don’t think Verdant is your typical English yeast. Too dry and crisp. But, it is a great alternative to Bry-97 when you want something different.

I have used Lallemand New England East Coast twice. I have not liked it. The attempts were a year apart with different packs of yeast. Both times the yeast took 30+ hours to start fermentation and both times I got a phenolic flavor. It turns out I under pitched both beers because even 1050 3 gallon batches need 2 packs of New England. So, I am not sure what to say. Did I screw up both times? I guess. But, other than the under pitch, I don’t think I had a dirty fermenter or some other infection source twice. Who knows. I don’t plan to give New England a 3rd chance. With the phenolic flavor, I am afraid to describe the yeast otherwise because I might be describing a wild yeast infection specific to my brewery.

[fredthecat]

I have used Verdant for 6-7 beers. I have made Ambers, IPA, APA, ordinary bitter, and a blonde ale. All were great. To me the main distinguishing feature was the beers were dry and crisp with a fruity finish. WLP002/WY1968 are not dry and crisp. So, if that is your reference for English yeast you could be disappointed. I think I could taste the fruity finish in the blonde and bitter. The others I think the hops were enhanced by the yeast, but I could not taste the yeast specifically. So, I don’t think Verdant is your typical English yeast. Too dry and crisp. But, it is a great alternative to Bry-97 when you want something different.

I have used Lallemand New England East Coast twice. I have not liked it. The attempts were a year apart with different packs of yeast. Both times the yeast took 30+ hours to start fermentation and both times I got a phenolic flavor. It turns out I under pitched both beers because even 1050 3 gallon batches need 2 packs of New England. So, I am not sure what to say. Did I screw up both times? I guess. But, other than the under pitch, I don’t think I had a dirty fermenter or some other infection source twice. Who knows. I don’t plan to give New England a 3rd chance. With the phenolic flavor, I am afraid to describe the yeast otherwise because I might be describing a wild yeast infection specific to my brewery.

appreciate the insight since im looking hard at dry yeasts again suddenly. and yeah re: pitch rates - people really need to check every lallemand yeast's recommended pitch rate on their website https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/canada/brewers-corner/brewing-tools/pitching-rate-calculator/
novalager is much less than any other dry lager yeast's typical pitch while koln is way, way more apparently.

[Iliff Ave]

I have a lot better luck with 10 day single vessel fermentations for all my beers.  I have tried to rush things and been burned too often.

Even though ales get fermented in the 60’s, English yeasts sometimes flocculate before they clean up the diacetyl, so I try to be patient.

PS. To answer your question. I really like Verdant IPA. It is an English yeast. It attenuates like Bry-97 but has fruity character. It doesn’t have that breadiness though.

Any idea how verdant compares to east coast/New England?

I have used Verdant for 6-7 beers. I have made Ambers, IPA, APA, ordinary bitter, and a blonde ale. All were great. To me the main distinguishing feature was the beers were dry and crisp with a fruity finish. WLP002/WY1968 are not dry and crisp. So, if that is your reference for English yeast you could be disappointed. I think I could taste the fruity finish in the blonde and bitter. The others I think the hops were enhanced by the yeast, but I could not taste the yeast specifically. So, I don’t think Verdant is your typical English yeast. Too dry and crisp. But, it is a great alternative to Bry-97 when you want something different.

I have used Lallemand New England East Coast twice. I have not liked it. The attempts were a year apart with different packs of yeast. Both times the yeast took 30+ hours to start fermentation and both times I got a phenolic flavor. It turns out I under pitched both beers because even 1050 3 gallon batches need 2 packs of New England. So, I am not sure what to say. Did I screw up both times? I guess. But, other than the under pitch, I don’t think I had a dirty fermenter or some other infection source twice. Who knows. I don’t plan to give New England a 3rd chance. With the phenolic flavor, I am afraid to describe the yeast otherwise because I might be describing a wild yeast infection specific to my brewery.

Thank you. I will have to give Verdant a try.

I have used new england twice as well and it performed very well for me however I'm not a big fan of the ester character.

[erockrph]

A couple of things that may or may not be helpful:

I know of no other yeast that has that bready flavor that S-04 imparts. Everyone's tastes vary, but I for one am thankful for that. I avoid S-04 because of that flavor.

Windsor on its own isn't dry, but added to a co-pitch of another yeast that does finish dry can give you the best of both worlds. Windsor has kind of a nutty/woody character with a bit of fruit, and you can get a dry finish by pitching US-05, BRY-97, Notty, etc. with it.

I'll add to the recommendations for Verdant. It is flavorful and finishes dry. Too dry for a Mild, at least for my liking, but great for a bigger Bitter or Pale Ale.

[Village Taphouse]

If these last two S-04 beers come out okay then maybe I just need to keep the beer warmer longer and be more diligent.  I tend to use this yeast in the early part of the year... January - March or April and then typically go back to lager yeast.  So my place is cool and it's harder to keep the beer warm to drive off the diacetyl.  But if time works in my favor then I'll just stay on top of it better.  I am starting to enjoy the ease and new selection of dry yeast (Novalager and Baja are both waiting here) so the S-04 has made a comeback here.  But I really dislike the presence of diacetyl so if I can't control it... I gotta look for something else. 

[denny]

If these last two S-04 beers come out okay then maybe I just need to keep the beer warmer longer and be more diligent.  I tend to use this yeast in the early part of the year... January - March or April and then typically go back to lager yeast.  So my place is cool and it's harder to keep the beer warm to drive off the diacetyl.  But if time works in my favor then I'll just stay on top of it better.  I am starting to enjoy the ease and new selection of dry yeast (Novalager and Baja are both waiting here) so the S-04 has made a comeback here.  But I really dislike the presence of diacetyl so if I can't control it... I gotta look for something else.

Time works as well as heat to reduce diacetyl.

[tommymorris]

If these last two S-04 beers come out okay then maybe I just need to keep the beer warmer longer and be more diligent.  I tend to use this yeast in the early part of the year... January - March or April and then typically go back to lager yeast.  So my place is cool and it's harder to keep the beer warm to drive off the diacetyl.  But if time works in my favor then I'll just stay on top of it better.  I am starting to enjoy the ease and new selection of dry yeast (Novalager and Baja are both waiting here) so the S-04 has made a comeback here.  But I really dislike the presence of diacetyl so if I can't control it... I gotta look for something else.

Do you have a spigot on your fermenter to taste the beer before kegging? I always try the beer out of the spigot. I have tasted diacetyl many times over the years and just waited a few more days before trying again. To me if there is diacetyl, leaving the beer on the yeast cake a few more days is the best remedy. In my imaginary world, the beer naturally circulates in the fermenter, so it moves over the cake. In real life, there may just be more yeast in suspension while still in the fermenter.

I think warming into the 60’s does speed the process but it is not absolutely necessary.

Of course, if precursor becomes diacetyl after kegging the spigot test doesn’t work. That just happened to me recently, but in that case I wasn’t patient in the first place. This scenario is rare for me.

[Village Taphouse]

If these last two S-04 beers come out okay then maybe I just need to keep the beer warmer longer and be more diligent.  I tend to use this yeast in the early part of the year... January - March or April and then typically go back to lager yeast.  So my place is cool and it's harder to keep the beer warm to drive off the diacetyl.  But if time works in my favor then I'll just stay on top of it better.  I am starting to enjoy the ease and new selection of dry yeast (Novalager and Baja are both waiting here) so the S-04 has made a comeback here.  But I really dislike the presence of diacetyl so if I can't control it... I gotta look for something else.

Do you have a spigot on your fermenter to taste the beer before kegging? I always try the beer out of the spigot. I have tasted diacetyl many times over the years and just waited a few more days before trying again. To me if there is diacetyl, leaving the beer on the yeast cake a few more days is the best remedy. In my imaginary world, the beer naturally circulates in the fermenter, so it moves over the cake. In real life, there may just be more yeast in suspension while still in the fermenter.

I think warming into the 60’s does speed the process but it is not absolutely necessary.

Of course, if precursor becomes diacetyl after kegging the spigot test doesn’t work. That just happened to me recently, but in that case I wasn’t patient in the first place. This scenario is rare for me.

Yes, I have a spigot and I have done that and often I *DO NOT* pick up diacetyl.  Then I transfer to keg, chill, carbonate and I may or may not pick up diacetyl when the beer is on tap.  It's very strange.  I can drink a few glasses of the beer... maybe it even warms up a little bit and I don't taste it.  Then I tap another glass and get a hint of it.  Really weird.  I suppose the best strategy is to give S-04 beers more time in the fermenter and at warmer temps... especially if there is no suitable sub for this yeast.  I seem to get quite a few compliments from people who drink my S-04 beers and they ask me what the character is and all I can point to is the yeast which usually confuses non-brewers/mortal beer-drinkers because they don't realize that yeast can leave its mark on a beer.