[Megary]

Brewing a simple 1.050 Cream Ale this weekend.

Mash at 150°
80% 2-Row
20% Flaked Maize

≈ 15 IBU's of Magnum at 60
≈ 5 IBU's of Saaz towards the end

WLP080

According to White Labs:
A blend of ale and lager yeast, this strain produces a classic cream ale. The blend produces a pleasing light fruity note from the ale yeast, while the lager strain produces clean pilsner-like flavors and a slightly subdued hop bitterness. This blend is known for producing subtle sulfur during primary fermentation.

Fermentation Temp range - 65-70°

I can't find a lot of firsthand user info on this strain.  I don't even see it on dmtaylor's yeast guide!
Anyone with "best handling practices" for WLP080?  I'm thinking of pitching right at the bottom of the temperature range (65°) and trying to hold it there for the first 48-72 hours, then let it warm a bit.

[denny]

No specific info for that yeast, but in general I have never found it a bad idea to pitch at or slightly below the low range.

[dmtaylor]

I just did a tiny bit of research, since you're right, this isn't on my equivalency sheet yet (for those in the dark: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing).

Since this is a very old blend that has been around for at least 15 years, my GUESS is that this is likely a blend of either WLP001 or WLP029 as the "ale" strain (I’m guessing the latter), along with either WLP800 or W830 as the "lager" portion, because all of those strains have been old reliable strains for decades, and would have all been very popular in the early 2000s.

Fascinatingly, please note:

WLP029 was more recently determined thru genomic study to actually be S. pastorianus!... meanwhile, WLP800 was recently determined to actually be S. cerevisiae!  So… if by some crazy chance they are using a blend of WLP029 & WLP800, then they would INDEED have a combination of "ale" and "lager" yeasts… except the two species would in fact be the exact OPPOSITES of what they thought!  I think this is VERY possible!

And if that particular combination is NOT what was used, then my guess is there are either two lager strains, or else WLP001 with either WLP800 or WLP830, since this blend WLP080 is known to produce sulfur, which the cerevisiae strains typically will not do very much, but is more of a pastorianus thing.

My money is on WLP029 with WLP800.  CRAZY, but they’d still be right -- one is an ale, one a lager.  They just got it backwards.  Too funny.

Regardless of which strains are in fact used… based on my experience using pastorianus/lager strains in the mid 60s F, as well as using Chico as cold as 55 F, I think ANY of these combinations will perform excellently for a cream ale fermented in the low to mid 60s.  Make a decent size starter, then let 'er roll.

Enjoy.   

[denny]

Has anyone taken the radical step of contacting White and asking them?

[Megary]

Has anyone taken the radical step of contacting White and asking them?

I just did.

[Megary]

I just did a tiny bit of research, since you're right, this isn't on my equivalency sheet yet (for those in the dark: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing).

Since this is a very old blend that has been around for at least 15 years, my GUESS is that this is likely a blend of either WLP001 or WLP029 as the "ale" strain (I’m guessing the latter), along with either WLP800 or W830 as the "lager" portion, because all of those strains have been old reliable strains for decades, and would have all been very popular in the early 2000s.

Fascinatingly, please note:

WLP029 was more recently determined thru genomic study to actually be S. pastorianus!... meanwhile, WLP800 was recently determined to actually be S. cerevisiae!  So… if by some crazy chance they are using a blend of WLP029 & WLP800, then they would INDEED have a combination of "ale" and "lager" yeasts… except the two species would in fact be the exact OPPOSITES of what they thought!  I think this is VERY possible!

And if that particular combination is NOT what was used, then my guess is there are either two lager strains, or else WLP001 with either WLP800 or WLP830, since this blend WLP080 is known to produce sulfur, which the cerevisiae strains typically will not do very much, but is more of a pastorianus thing.

My money is on WLP029 with WLP800.  CRAZY, but they’d still be right -- one is an ale, one a lager.  They just got it backwards.  Too funny.

Regardless of which strains are in fact used… based on my experience using pastorianus/lager strains in the mid 60s F, as well as using Chico as cold as 55 F, I think ANY of these combinations will perform excellently for a cream ale fermented in the low to mid 60s.  Make a decent size starter, then let 'er roll.

Enjoy.   

Thanks for that post.  Pretty damn ironic if your theory is correct.  I asked WL about the strains in the blend, but I doubt they'll divulge that info.

This is a 3-gallon batch so I'm hoping a starter is not necessary (because I'm far too lazy to make one!  )

[Megary]

That didn’t take long.  I sent WL an email…

“I am a long time homebrewer who has used many of your strains with great results. In a few days, I plan on using 080 for the first time. It will be in a small batch (3gal) Cream Ale, OG approximately 1.050.

My question is regarding fermentation temperature. Your site lists a range of 65-70*F but also mentions this yeast is a blend of an ale and lager strain. I was wondering if I can safely ferment even lower than 65, say in the upper 50’s or low 60’s? My thinking is to make this beer as crisp and “lager-like” as possible. And if I may, can you tell me what strains have been blended, since I have likely used both before and should have a good handle on how they behave in my brewhouse. (Possibly 029 and 800?). If not, I understand.

Thanks in advance for any and all help. Love your product.”

———————-

Their reply:

You probably have used the strains before but I cannot disclose those sorry (it isn't either of those). The only issue with doing it at lower temps is the need for more yeast (though 1x 35mL classic Hb pack or 1x 70mL purepitch next gen HB pack would work fine for 3gal at lower temps) this is because for fermentation under 61F yeast can grow more sluggish and have a larger lag time/not grow as well. For lagers, they suggest doubling the pitch for that exact reason. We did a cream ale in house at 64F (https://4099054.app.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=9536028&c=4099054&h=WMJOVDlxgIt3PJEwaTteks0cmIzD2G29ib7kXiZtqc3rHhnb&_xt=.pdf) but I wouldn't see any issue in going lower to achieve that crisper flavor. We did a side by side with a lager yeast in this batch too (https://4099054.app.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=9015602&c=4099054&h=0vHTjIdjAxuHhUABLHDVbn7MyaxBR6SxOkKR0A912EBX3DWF&_xt=.pdf) and you can see due to that 64F temp we got much more diacetyl which is often considered an "off" flavor in lagers. Let me know if you have any questions on this.

Cheers
Andre

[dmtaylor]

(it isn't either of those)

Well, then my theory is officially updated to WLP001 with WLP830.  I'll bet I'm at least 50% correct.  It's kind of like the Monty Hall problem -- oh, it's not behind door #2?  Sure I'll change my answer from door #1 to door #3.   

[Megary]

(it isn't either of those)

Well, then my theory is officially updated to WLP001 with WLP830.  I'll bet I'm at least 50% correct.  It's kind of like the Monty Hall problem -- oh, it's not behind door #2?  Sure I'll change my answer from door #1 to door #3.   

Yeah.  Their comment “You probably have used the strains before” makes me think 001 and 830.  But who knows?

[denny]

(it isn't either of those)

Well, then my theory is officially updated to WLP001 with WLP830.  I'll bet I'm at least 50% correct.  It's kind of like the Monty Hall problem -- oh, it's not behind door #2?  Sure I'll change my answer from door #1 to door #3.   

And I'll bet that's as correct as your previous guess!

[ynotbrusum]

Still it might be interesting to try 029 and 830 in combination....

[Megary]

Just a further clarification on my question regarding fermenting WLP080 below it’s stated temperature range of 65-70.

From White Labs…

Yes, one (pack) should be fine as long as you start it over 61F for 24hrs so it can build up enough cells then you can drop it down to 50-60F.  Even if you started it low it might still be fine just a bigger lag phase and sluggish start. Hopefully, it does what you want but let me know how I can help further.

Cheers
Andre

[Megary]

So this has been an interesting fermentation so far.

I altered the recipe of the Cream Ale:

76% Pils
20% Flaked Corn
4% Dextrose

1.051 OG

I pitched at 65° and lowered the temp to 60°.
Fermentation started slowly, showing signs of life after about 18-24 hours or so.
As fermentation got going the temp raised to ≈ 65°, where it sat for a few days doing its thing.  A nice, white Krausen developed.
After about 3 days, the temp started to drop and activity appeared to slow down so I decided to raise the temp to 66° to let the beer finish up.
At this point, activity increased and the Krausen rose even higher and out the blow-off.
Now on day 5 post pitch, the Krausen has yet to recede, and fermentation continues along purposefully.

I'm assuming, because I started this cold (below its printed temp range of 65-70), that would explain the slow start.  But I've never seen a fermentation sort of shift into a higher gear after it appeared to be winding down.

I took a peek inside the fermenter and the Krausen looks like the top of a meringue pie, but the smell is bready and very lager-like.  Nice touch of malt and corn.  Really wonderful.

[dmtaylor]

I appreciate the update.  Please keep us informed of how it turns out.  Give it some time, too.  I am guessing it might end up with hints of sulfur and/or diacetyl that will age out after about a month.  Maybe not, but don't be surprised, and don't worry, if it does happen.

[ynotbrusum]

Well, I guess it shows that biological activity is not always uniform.  As to what might have caused the second boost stage, it may have been oxygen ingress or swirling?  I use a Tilt hydrometer and pressure ferment most lagers (at lager temps though) and I have been more into watching the fermentation profiles of my yeast pitches.  What is universal is how quickly the fermentation completes, despite from appearances it sometimes holds a fairly long krausen.