[beerphilmcd]

Before I say anything else, I understand I’m talking about a beer I’ve never tasted.

I was baffled to be scrolling through zymurgy looking at medal winning recipes and seeing the gold medal winning APA used 12 oz of hops total and 6 oz of dry hops in a 6 gallon batch. I immediately went to the bjcp guidelines and looked at the exemplary commercial brews which includes SNPA, Mirror Pond, and Daisy Cutter. Thumbing through Sierra Nevada’s shared recipe and clone recipes of the other 2 they generally contain 3-4 oz of hops.

It must be said the posted recipe uses almost 16 and a half pounds of malt and an efficiency of 59% thus it would be very grainy offering far more balance than one would initially believe when looking at the hop bill.

My confusion here is how a competition holding up snpa et al as prime examples could give gold to a beer that would be so much bigger/bolder in flavor. I’m positive the beer was amazing I’m questioning the value of judgment. I realize the competition isn’t about cloning those style examples but I can’t believe this is a beer that falls within the style guidelines.

Clearly I’m wrong or missing something. There’s just a disconnect between this judgment and the examples held up as most representative of the style.

To the brewer, Jonathan Bacon, I mean absolutely no harm, you did your job very well and have the gold to prove it.


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[dmtaylor]

I think you are probably right.  APAs that win these days need to be IPAs, IPAs need to be Double IPAs, etc.

And you are also right -- neither you nor I have tasted the beer, so we don't really know for sure how well it fits the style.

Does seem odd to have such poor efficiency.  But it happens.  Low efficiency should in theory increase malty flavor.  Perhaps that is the balance these judges were looking for in the APA.  And maybe the brewer diluted the beer down to make it more quaffable?  There is a lot we don't know.

[pete b]

There has been pressure for a long time to make beers more of everything. I don’t do competitions but I see it commercially. I think every Porter I have bought in the last ten years I looked at and tasted and thought “nice stout”.

[dmtaylor]

There has been pressure for a long time to make beers more of everything. I don’t do competitions but I see it commercially. I think every Porter I have bought in the last ten years I looked at and tasted and thought “nice stout”.

There is no real difference between porter and stout.  Never really was.

[majorvices]

In some cases, beers that do best at competitions or at beer festivals are usually the ones that are bigger and bolder and hold up extremely well to small samples--but not necessarily side by side with other beers when consumed by the pint.

[Megary]

There has been pressure for a long time to make beers more of everything. I don’t do competitions but I see it commercially. I think every Porter I have bought in the last ten years I looked at and tasted and thought “nice stout”.

There is no real difference between porter and stout.  Never really was.

Hmm.

MY OPINION:
I expect (most) Stouts to have a definite roast presence and they should lean dry, whereas a Porter should be sweeter with a chocolate/caramel presence.  I believe there should be a recognizable difference, though what a brewer wants to call their beer is entirely up to them.  But like pete b, when I buy a "Stout" or a "Porter", I expect a certain something, regardless of whether I get it or not.

For me, how a Stout or Porter or Stout Porter was brewed in 1830 doesn't really have any relevance to today.

Apologies to the OP for derailing this thread.

[denny]

At GABF a few years back, SNPA failed to medal in the category it defined.

[Bel Air Brewing]

At GABF a few years back, SNPA failed to medal in the category it defined.

Perhaps you could amplify on this a bit. Since Sierra Nevada is the definition of Pale Ale, and set the standard for the beer, what the heck happened?

Is it that other breweries are brewing a better Pale Ale?

Or is it that breweries today have gone over-the-top in their approach?

Is a Pale Ale of today the same beer a Pale Ale was 20 years ago? If not, has the definition changed?

[beerphilmcd]

In some cases, beers that do best at competitions or at beer festivals are usually the ones that are bigger and bolder and hold up extremely well to small samples--but not necessarily side by side with other beers when consumed by the pint.

There’s a lot of truth in this but it isn’t supposed to be that way. I’ve placed in the best of show round with a blonde ale and have seen many competitions won by unlikely beers. It is supposed to be that way, where you brew to style.

Conversely prior to Covid at our last local public beer festival I showed up in a kilt serving imperial maple bacon stout with free bacon and easily walked away with the peoples choice award because I understood it was about making an impression. I literally called it shooting fish in a barrel. Make no mistake the beer was quite good but a peoples choice is very different from bjcp!


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[denny]

At GABF a few years back, SNPA failed to medal in the category it defined.

Perhaps you could amplify on this a bit. Since Sierra Nevada is the definition of Pale Ale, and set the standard for the beer, what the heck happened?

Is it that other breweries are brewing a better Pale Ale?

Or is it that breweries today have gone over-the-top in their approach?

Is a Pale Ale of today the same beer a Pale Ale was 20 years ago? If not, has the definition changed?

Not much to elaborate on. The judges chose different beers and SNPA didn't medal.

[beerphilmcd]

At GABF a few years back, SNPA failed to medal in the category it defined.

Perhaps you could amplify on this a bit. Since Sierra Nevada is the definition of Pale Ale, and set the standard for the beer, what the heck happened?

Is it that other breweries are brewing a better Pale Ale?

Or is it that breweries today have gone over-the-top in their approach?

Is a Pale Ale of today the same beer a Pale Ale was 20 years ago? If not, has the definition changed?

Those are great questions!

I would agree the style has changed and become more hop forward commercially. I’m quite sure snpa has become more hop forward through the years.

However mostly these commercial realities should not matter in a bjcp competition especially the nationals. What defines commercial beer is immaterial in a bjcp event as the liquid is defined by the guidelines and the commercial references backup those descriptions. When beers fall outside those descriptions they fall outside the guidelines, period.

A perfect example of this is that Tinroof Voodoo Pale Ale won gold at gabf a few years ago which I have zero problem with due to it being a very different competition. I LOVE that beer, but if I turned the hazy soft hop forward beer into a bjcp event as a pale ale I’d expect a 30-35 point score not a 48 point winner. Why? The style guidelines.


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[chinaski]

  Low efficiency should in theory increase malty flavor.  Perhaps that is the balance these judges were looking for in the APA.  And maybe the brewer diluted the beer down to make it more quaffable?  There is a lot we don't know.

Not understand this- why would malt flavor increase?  I suppose this could be true if malt flavor extraction efficiency is different that malt sugar extraction efficiency.  Is there some other mechanism you have in mind?

I am getting 60-65% efficiency these days and that's OK.  It's consistent enough to allow me to design and/or adjust recipes.  Nothing wrong with it.

[dannyjed]

I think the APA category has trended more toward a higher ABV and more hop flavor in recent years. 20 years ago they would have been considered IPA’s. I still think SNPA is a classic that never gets old.


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[BrewBama]

In some cases, beers that do best at competitions or at beer festivals are usually the ones that are bigger and bolder and hold up extremely well to small samples--but not necessarily side by side with other beers when consumed by the pint.

+1. I am a KCBS judge. This reminds me of ‘one bite BBQ’. Great for a competition but I wouldn’t want to make a meal of it.

At GABF a few years back, SNPA failed to medal in the category it defined.

What a shame.

[hopfenundmalz]

SNPA falls in the middle of many of the guideline specs IIRC.

Oh, it is a showcase for Cascade hops, which not do well in a competition against all of the new hops that everywhere i.e. Citra.

When I have a fresh SNPA I'm a happy guy.