[denny]

Hot break is the cause of the egg drop soup appearance in wort. https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/proper-boil-ph/ discusses how to maximize your cold break with the addition of calcium in the boil. I have never tried this because I am somewhat ambivalent about haze (appearance is only 3 points out of 50 in beer competitions).

Thanks.  I'm going to read that.  I seem to remember proper levels of calcium being important to yeast health but I'm not sure I have ever heard of it helping with haze, break formation, etc.  I only have 34ppm of Ca in my source water so I always add some CaCl and/or CaSO4 to get to about 50-60ppm.

IIRC, Martin has talked about Ca in terms of yeast flocculation and has said that for lagers 25 ppm is enough. The lagering process takes care of what Ca would otherwise do.

[Village Taphouse]

Hot break is the cause of the egg drop soup appearance in wort. https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/proper-boil-ph/ discusses how to maximize your cold break with the addition of calcium in the boil. I have never tried this because I am somewhat ambivalent about haze (appearance is only 3 points out of 50 in beer competitions).

Thanks.  I'm going to read that.  I seem to remember proper levels of calcium being important to yeast health but I'm not sure I have ever heard of it helping with haze, break formation, etc.  I only have 34ppm of Ca in my source water so I always add some CaCl and/or CaSO4 to get to about 50-60ppm.

IIRC, Martin has talked about Ca in terms of yeast flocculation and has said that for lagers 25 ppm is enough. The lagering process takes care of what Ca would otherwise do.

Interesting.  Brewing certainly contains a lot of "strange mysteries that we can't see" and this seems like one of them especially when your scientific background is questionable. 

[denny]

Hot break is the cause of the egg drop soup appearance in wort. https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/proper-boil-ph/ discusses how to maximize your cold break with the addition of calcium in the boil. I have never tried this because I am somewhat ambivalent about haze (appearance is only 3 points out of 50 in beer competitions).

Thanks.  I'm going to read that.  I seem to remember proper levels of calcium being important to yeast health but I'm not sure I have ever heard of it helping with haze, break formation, etc.  I only have 34ppm of Ca in my source water so I always add some CaCl and/or CaSO4 to get to about 50-60ppm.

IIRC, Martin has talked about Ca in terms of yeast flocculation and has said that for lagers 25 ppm is enough. The lagering process takes care of what Ca would otherwise do.

Interesting.  Brewing certainly contains a lot of "strange mysteries that we can't see" and this seems like one of them especially when your scientific background is questionable.

Did you listen to the interview we did with Martin recently? Lots of good info in it.

[kramerog]

Hot break is the cause of the egg drop soup appearance in wort. https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/proper-boil-ph/ discusses how to maximize your cold break with the addition of calcium in the boil. I have never tried this because I am somewhat ambivalent about haze (appearance is only 3 points out of 50 in beer competitions).

Thanks.  I'm going to read that.  I seem to remember proper levels of calcium being important to yeast health but I'm not sure I have ever heard of it helping with haze, break formation, etc.  I only have 34ppm of Ca in my source water so I always add some CaCl and/or CaSO4 to get to about 50-60ppm.

The purpose of the calcium addition here is to change the wort pH.

IIRC, Martin has talked about Ca in terms of yeast flocculation and has said that for lagers 25 ppm is enough. The lagering process takes care of what Ca would otherwise do.

Interesting.  Brewing certainly contains a lot of "strange mysteries that we can't see" and this seems like one of them especially when your scientific background is questionable.

My text is missing so I've edited the post. The calcium is used to adjust the pH to get a hot break; increasing calcium is not the goal.

[neuse]

Hot break is the cause of the egg drop soup appearance in wort. https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/proper-boil-ph/ discusses how to maximize your cold break with the addition of calcium in the boil. I have never tried this because I am somewhat ambivalent about haze (appearance is only 3 points out of 50 in beer competitions). 

I don't know what to think about the recommendation: "If, after the first 15 minutes of boiling your wort, you think your boil pH is too high, add approximately 50 ppm of calcium ions to your kettle. For 5 gallons (19 L) of wort, adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride (CaCl2) or calcium sulfate (CaSO4) will yield about 50 ppm.If, after the first 15 minutes of boiling your wort, you think your boil pH is too high, add approximately 50 ppm of calcium ions to your kettle. For 5 gallons (19 L) of wort, adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride (CaCl2) or calcium sulfate (CaSO4) will yield about 50 ppm." After carefully adjusting your water chemistry, you would add a teaspoon of calcium chloride to help with the hot break. But it seems that this would throw your water chemistry off.

Edit: I realized there were comments at the end of the article, and my concerns are addressed there - although it doesn't seem as straightforward as I would like.

[Village Taphouse]

Hot break is the cause of the egg drop soup appearance in wort. https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/proper-boil-ph/ discusses how to maximize your cold break with the addition of calcium in the boil. I have never tried this because I am somewhat ambivalent about haze (appearance is only 3 points out of 50 in beer competitions). 

I don't know what to think about the recommendation: "If, after the first 15 minutes of boiling your wort, you think your boil pH is too high, add approximately 50 ppm of calcium ions to your kettle. For 5 gallons (19 L) of wort, adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride (CaCl2) or calcium sulfate (CaSO4) will yield about 50 ppm.If, after the first 15 minutes of boiling your wort, you think your boil pH is too high, add approximately 50 ppm of calcium ions to your kettle. For 5 gallons (19 L) of wort, adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride (CaCl2) or calcium sulfate (CaSO4) will yield about 50 ppm." After carefully adjusting your water chemistry, you would add a teaspoon of calcium chloride to help with the hot break. But it seems that this would throw your water chemistry off.

Edit: I realized there were comments at the end of the article, and my concerns are addressed there - although it doesn't seem as straightforward as I would like.

Some of this is mentioned by Gordon Strong.  The mash pH, the boil pH and the pH of the wort when you pitch may all need to be adjusted to get the ideal conditions.  I mash in that 5.3 -5.5 range (at room temp) and then I boil with the same pH but with about 10 minutes left I add 1ml of lactic acid to the boil because it's supposed to be better for clarifiers like Whirfloc and it's also supposed to get the wort to a better pH for pitching.  This might be misguided or oversimplified and it may or may not be doing anything to combat chill haze. 

[denny]

Hot break is the cause of the egg drop soup appearance in wort. https://beerandgardeningjournal.com/proper-boil-ph/ discusses how to maximize your cold break with the addition of calcium in the boil. I have never tried this because I am somewhat ambivalent about haze (appearance is only 3 points out of 50 in beer competitions). 

I don't know what to think about the recommendation: "If, after the first 15 minutes of boiling your wort, you think your boil pH is too high, add approximately 50 ppm of calcium ions to your kettle. For 5 gallons (19 L) of wort, adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride (CaCl2) or calcium sulfate (CaSO4) will yield about 50 ppm.If, after the first 15 minutes of boiling your wort, you think your boil pH is too high, add approximately 50 ppm of calcium ions to your kettle. For 5 gallons (19 L) of wort, adding 1 tsp of calcium chloride (CaCl2) or calcium sulfate (CaSO4) will yield about 50 ppm." After carefully adjusting your water chemistry, you would add a teaspoon of calcium chloride to help with the hot break. But it seems that this would throw your water chemistry off.

Edit: I realized there were comments at the end of the article, and my concerns are addressed there - although it doesn't seem as straightforward as I would like.

Some of this is mentioned by Gordon Strong.  The mash pH, the boil pH and the pH of the wort when you pitch may all need to be adjusted to get the ideal conditions.  I mash in that 5.3 -5.5 range (at room temp) and then I boil with the same pH but with about 10 minutes left I add 1ml of lactic acid to the boil because it's supposed to be better for clarifiers like Whirfloc and it's also supposed to get the wort to a better pH for pitching.  This might be misguided or oversimplified and it may or may not be doing anything to combat chill haze.

If you'd like more info, we covered this in the recent interview with Martin.

[Village Taphouse]

If you'd like more info, we covered this in the recent interview with Martin.

Do you have a link, Denny?  I will listen to it. 

[denny]

If you'd like more info, we covered this in the recent interview with Martin.

Do you have a link, Denny?  I will listen to it.

What, you mean you don't automatically listen to every one?😉

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-159-ph-martin

[BrewBama]

Ken, have you considered a protein rest in an attempt to reduce haze?

Something I recently read: If you like to drink your beer well chilled, or use an undermodified malt, or use a large proportion of unmalted or flaked grains (usually >25%), then you may want to use a protein rest in your mash schedule.

…but it comes with a warning: Using the rest with fully modified malts could result in the proteins responsible for head retention and mouthfeel being broken down yielding a thin watery beer.


*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

[denny]

Ken, have you considered a protein rest in an attempt to reduce haze?

Something I recently read: If you like to drink your beer well chilled, or use an undermodified malt, or use a large proportion of unmalted or flaked grains (usually >25%), then you may want to use a protein rest in your mash schedule.

…but it comes with a warning: Using the rest with fully modified malts could result in the proteins responsible for head retention and mouthfeel being broken down yielding a thin watery beer.


*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

Yeah, a lesson I've learned through bitter experience. If you're using most American or German malts, you should avoid a protein rest. I just used some Crisp Hana. Supposedly the original variety used for pils.  And undermodified enough that it pretty much requires a step or decoction mash. Just put the first batch with it in the fermenter using a fairly extensive (for me) mash schedule. Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.

[Village Taphouse]

Ken, have you considered a protein rest in an attempt to reduce haze?

Something I recently read: If you like to drink your beer well chilled, or use an undermodified malt, or use a large proportion of unmalted or flaked grains (usually >25%), then you may want to use a protein rest in your mash schedule.

…but it comes with a warning: Using the rest with fully modified malts could result in the proteins responsible for head retention and mouthfeel being broken down yielding a thin watery beer.


*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

I remember visiting this topic awhile back and how various mash rests work [to do this or that] but which malt you use makes a difference and if a brewer thought they would try a rest but they were using normally-modified malts, there could be a drawback instead of a benefit.  I stopped right there assuming that none of the malts I use were under-modified.

[HighVoltageMan!]

Ken, have you considered a protein rest in an attempt to reduce haze?

Something I recently read: If you like to drink your beer well chilled, or use an undermodified malt, or use a large proportion of unmalted or flaked grains (usually >25%), then you may want to use a protein rest in your mash schedule.

…but it comes with a warning: Using the rest with fully modified malts could result in the proteins responsible for head retention and mouthfeel being broken down yielding a thin watery beer.


*Disclaimer*: Any comment I add is simply the way I brew beer. There are certainly other ways that can be equally effective which other brewers may contribute. This is what I’ve found that works for me using my equipment and processes so I offer this for your consideration. YMMV

I remember visiting this topic awhile back and how various mash rests work [to do this or that] but which malt you use makes a difference and if a brewer thought they would try a rest but they were using normally-modified malts, there could be a drawback instead of a benefit.  I stopped right there assuming that none of the malts I use were under-modified.

Proteolysis in the mash is nearly nonexistent. It's long been said that a protein rest will continue to break down proteins in the mash, but few protein enzymes survive the malting process with today's well modified malts. It's more likely the so called "protein rest" is more of a beta glucan rest, which can be very helpful with mash flow.

Achieving clear beer is really quite simple. Reduce sediments (yeast), reduce polyphenols (PVPP and clarifiers)  and reduce proteins (clarifiers). The first thing that needs to happen is to determine the type of haze and target it. It's seems pretty clear you have chill haze. It's a weak hydrogen bond between the polyphenol molecules and the protein molecules that forms at cold temperatures. Your most likely problem is too many polyphenols have made it into the finished beer. There are many ways to reduce these compounds and without brewing with you, it is very difficult to trouble shoot this problem over a forum.  You may need to change several things in your brewing process to fix it. The bright side is solving this problem will make you a better brewer.

[MagicRat]

I'm all about simplicity.  I cold crash for about 48 hours. Add gelatin. Bottle 24 hours later. The beer is clear (or close enough to it that it doesn't matter to me).
I sometimes use Whirlfloc with 10 minutes left in the boil (60 minutes) but in all honesty, I usually forget the Whirlfloc.

[BrewBama]

Enzymes are also used in the brewing process post-fermentation, to control chill-haze in packaged beers and increase shelf-life. Such enzymes are proteolytic based on papain (Carica Papaya) and have an optimum temperature range of 35 – 45°C, and pH range of 4 – 5·5. Added to conditioning tank they will break down the high molecular weight proteins that react with polypeptides to form chill hazes. Whilst other means of inhibiting chill haze are available – for example the use of Silica Hydrogel or PVPP – Papain remains one of the most cost effective and widespread means of achieving this objective. (https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resources/technical-articles/enzymes-in-the-brewing-process/)