[Bel Air Brewing]

This deserves a separate thread.
One of Bel Air's entries was an Imperial Stout.
It was a clone brew of North Coast's Old Rasputin.
We upped the grain bill a bit, shooting for bigger numbers.

5 gallons - 90 minute boil:

OG = 1.093
FG = 1.017
ABV = 10%
IBU = 55

Here is the recipe...basically taken from BYO:

Pale Malt - 20 lbs
Munich Malt - 4 lbs
40* Caramel - 1 lb
120* Caramel - 1 lb
Brown Malt - 1/2 lb
Chocolate Malt - 1/2 lb
Roasted Barley - 1/4 lb
Special B - 1/4 lb

2 oz Willamette FWH
2 oz Willamette 30 min
2 oz Willamette 10 min
6% AA

Wyeast London Ale - 5th Gen

Color - Deep, deep ruby red, almost black.

This is a fine beer. But, here are the judges comments. See what you think.

"A nice beer with a good overall finish. Could use more body. Too light for the style"

"Good beer. Should be darker. Kick up the roast for this style. This beer is between a Big Brown Ale, and a Stout."
Scores: 34 points total (Consensus score)
Aroma - 11
Appearance - 2
Flavor - 15
Mouthfeel - 4
Overall - 4

Based on the recipe, and the judges comments, what say you? Is North Coast Old Rasputin an Imperial Stout or not?

[Bob357]

Asking us to be objective without even seeing your beer, let alone sampling it, is like expecting good scores because you like the beer and think the judges should too. Perhaps you just have a higher opinion than others about your brews. Maybe if the judging was based on your description, it would have scored much higher. Unfortunately, it wasn't and didn't.

Keep in mind that they weren't judging Old Rasputin so whether it fit the style guidelines or not is irrelevant.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Asking us to be objective without even seeing your beer, let alone sampling it, is like expecting good scores because you like the beer and think the judges should too. Perhaps you just have a higher opinion than others about your brews. Maybe if the judging was based on your description, it would have scored much higher. Unfortunately, it wasn't and didn't.

Keep in mind that they weren't judging Old Rasputin so whether it fit the style guidelines or not is irrelevant.

Just asking if Old Rasputin is an Imperial Stout. That was my clone recipe, and I'll bet it came close to North Coasts beer.
Stand by, I'll let you see it...

[Richard]

Asking us to be objective without even seeing your beer, let alone sampling it, is like expecting good scores because you like the beer and think the judges should too. Perhaps you just have a higher opinion than others about your brews. Maybe if the judging was based on your description, it would have scored much higher. Unfortunately, it wasn't and didn't.

Keep in mind that they weren't judging Old Rasputin so whether it fit the style guidelines or not is irrelevant.

Just asking if Old Rasputin is an Imperial Stout. That was my clone recipe, and I'll bet it came close to North Coasts beer.
Stand by, I'll let you see it...

North Coast Brewing Company calls it a Russian Imperial Stout (https://northcoastbrewing.com/beers/year-round-beers/old-rasputin-russian-imperial-stout/) and they have won a number of awards for it, some specifically the Imperial Stout category.

FYI, I brewed a very similar recipe (with double the roast barley and no Special B) and got comments similar to the ones you got.
Can you get some Old Rasputin to do a side-by-side with your beer?

[Bel Air Brewing]

Here are some photos...let your eyes do the tasting!

I will look for a North Coast example, don't think I can get one in Texas.

[Bob357]

Come on. You really expect your beer to be judged by a couple of pictures? What are we to taste other than color and billowing foam, and what do either do to tell us that it fits the style? It presents well, but that's about it. Try being real and accepting some criticism. That's what competitions are all about. If you want to judge your own beer, save the entry fees and give your ego a perfect score. Sheesh!

[Bel Air Brewing]

Come on. You really expect your beer to be judged by a couple of pictures? What are we to taste other than color and billowing foam, and what do either do to tell us that it fits the style? It presents well, but that's about it. Try being real and accepting some criticism. That's what competitions are all about. If you want to judge your own beer, save the entry fees and give your ego a perfect score. Sheesh!

Well...this forum is populated by many highly experienced brewers, borderline professional class.
I am only asking for a subjective opinion, based on the recipe, the pictures, and your high level of experience.
I can accept constructive criticism, if it is valid.
Sheeeesh!!!

We at Bel Air Brewing expected more from the brewers on this forum, being the highly educated and experienced group that comprises this site.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Here is my highly subjective side-by-side comparison, of Flat Spin (Bel Air Brewing) vs Old Rasputin (North Coast):

Winner in each category:

Head retention - Old Rasputin
Aroma - Tie
a. Old Rasputin is more hop forward
b. Flat Spin is like a good Kentucky Bourbon
Flavor - Flat Spin
Mouthfeel - Old Rasputin
Overall - Old Rasputin

So, in my subjective analysis, Old Rasputin wins. Flat Spin is a very drinkable beer, in fact, a very good beer, but does not have the depth of character that Old Rasputin has.

But...our entry is not too light for the style. So I disagree with the judges comments. Again, we at Bel Air Brewing have work to do!

edit: The taste test...Flat Spin is balanced, perfectly balanced. Just a slight hint of bourbon like alcohol in the finish. Old Rasputin, balanced, but that is it.

[RC]

My philosophy is, at the end of the day, all that matters is if you enjoy the beer. Whom are you brewing the beer for? Yourself? BJCP judges? Two different audiences. If you enjoy it, who cares how BJCP judges judge it.

As a general rule, I am skeptical of clone recipes because they are typically formulated by homebrew supply companies who simply want to sell recipe kits. These recipes often have no basis in what the ingredients actually are--let alone a homebrewer's specific process, which varies widely.

If Rasputin stout is what you were going for, the grain bill here is way short on the roasted malts and the late hops, which I'm pretty sure are the C variety (this is a legacy beer, after all). And 1/4 lb of Special B is totally lost in a beer this size. It's not out of place, but why use it if it's totally lost in the flavor noise?

[Richard]

North Coast lists Old Rasputin at 75 IBU, while this recipe has 55 IBU. No more details from the brewery except ABV.

[BrewBama]

Based on your success I wouldn’t fiddle with a thing. You are doing well exactly how you are brewing now. Don’t let perfect get in the way of good.

My thought on competition is simple. If you want to compete, brew the beer you want to enter the way you like it. After tasting it, if you think that beer is worthy of entry into a competition then don’t change a thing. If the judges share your opinion, great. If not, great.  It doesn’t change a thing.  It was a good beer before you entered it and it’s a good beer after the judging is complete.

Cheers!

[Iliff Ave]

I think the amount of roasted barley is low. I could see why it might come off as a big brown ale. 1% ain’t gonna cut it. Kick up the roast like one of the judges said.

[Bob357]

Come on. You really expect your beer to be judged by a couple of pictures? What are we to taste other than color and billowing foam, and what do either do to tell us that it fits the style? It presents well, but that's about it. Try being real and accepting some criticism. That's what competitions are all about. If you want to judge your own beer, save the entry fees and give your ego a perfect score. Sheesh!

Well...this forum is populated by many highly experienced brewers, borderline professional class.
I am only asking for a subjective opinion, based on the recipe, the pictures, and your high level of experience.
I can accept constructive criticism, if it is valid.

We at Bel Air Brewing expected more from the brewers on this forum, being the highly educated and experienced group that comprises this site.

What specifically is it about my criticism that you find not valid? Do you really think a beer can be judged based on a couple of pictures and a recipe that may not have been a good match for the one you attempted to clone and expecting it to get scored based on the original? Do you expect more than an honest response based on what you offer? 

[Bel Air Brewing]

Again...drinking while posting is a dangerous activity.

I no longer trust the clone recipes posted on AHA / BYO.

If North Coast sets the standard for this style, my entry simply falls short.

Thanks for all of the input, suggestions, and help. And constructive, helpful criticism is always welcome! Making better beer is a never ending goal.

[ttash]

Simply as a matter of perspective, judges and judging are highly subjective and often flawed. Don't get too hung up on it. I have medaled in GABF and WBC and have seen scoresheets/judge comments for those very same beers that were the exact opposite of other judges sitting at the same table. No disrespect to any judges out there but there's plenty of room for disagreement at a table.

Again, don't get too hung up on it. Use it as a tool for improvement, but don't treat judges comments as gospel, they're only human and often wrong. Brew for yourself, not competitions. 🍺