[fredthecat]

without getting into something silly like 50% crystal 10 grists, how would you get the strongest malt flavour in beer while keeping it under 7SRM?

i considered making a gravity limit, but comparitively a 1.09 OG 2row beer is still going to be bland compared to another 1.09 OG beer with adjuncts/crystal/artisanal base malt etc

malt flavour, so hops aren't a factor unless you want to explain that they influence the malt

ive been using amber malt (22srm) a lot over the past 6 months and i think it provides some depth and flavour, but not as much as one might imagine tbh. in fact i used castle biscuit malt (also 22srm i presume similar process) and i distinctly remember a big "wow" factor i perceived in flavour.

mash temp/mash type? does a quadruple decoction work malt wonders?

[KellerBrauer]

This is a very good question, Fredthecat.  I will be interested in reading the responses.  I recently brewed a Helles and wondered the same thing. 

[BrewBama]

A few ideas:

You hit on one: use of what I’ll call melatonin-style malts: Amber, Biscuit, Melanoidin, etc.  Other malts like Aromatic or Munich give a maltiness to the beer but 7 SRM might be a tall order for them. Oats tend to give a fuller mouthfeel which can be associated with maltiness.

Another would be using craft malt like Mecca Grade, Root Shoot, Pilot Malt House, etc. or a heritage malt like Maris Otter, Golden Promise, Chevalier, etc... Commodity grade malts don’t seem to have the same je ne sais quoi as some of the craft or heritage malts.

Try a yeast that gives a fuller finish.

You could adjust processes like using a higher mash temp though I doubt I could tell the difference in a 152°F and 156°F ….or try a decoction mash which is reported to produce more maltiness.

You could go low O2 which is reported to produce a fuller malt flavor.

Brewhaus liquor treatment can influence taste perception. Use more chloride and less/zero sulfate, no bicarbonates, etc.

[dmtaylor]

A little bit of Victory malt (2-3%?), a good portion of Vienna malt (not sure, maybe 33-50%?), and Lallemand London yeast for low attenuation around 68-69% but with great flavor that is reasonably neutral (unlike Windsor).

[denny]

Careful choice of matter makes a lot of difference. Something like Crisp Plumage Archer is only 1.9L yet has an amazing malt flavor. Base malt is not just base malt.

[Megary]

Has anyone played around with Non-Enzymatic Mashing?  I haven't, so apologies if what follows is pretty dumb...

I know NEM has been suggested as a way to make low ABV beers, but what if:
1 . Cold steep some quantity of base malt overnight.
2.  Remove grains
3.  Use the NEM "wort" as the brewing mash water for the next beer.

Could this be a way to add flavor and body?

I honestly have no idea.  Even if it would work, its probably more complicated than its worth.

[narvin]

There are many flavors that come from malt including toasted, honey, grainy, biscuity, etc.  Take a look at the flavor wheel for the Weyermann heirloom malt varieties and try out different malts, both base and specialty, if you don't like what you get from your current grainbill. 

https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/products-2/brewery-2/

For preserving the malt character for a given grain bill, I find that proper water chemisty (i.e. reducing alkalinity), a healthy fermentation, not overboiling, and minimizing O2 pickup (especially post fermentation) helps a lot.

[denny]

Has anyone played around with Non-Enzymatic Mashing?  I haven't, so apologies if what follows is pretty dumb...

I know NEM has been suggested as a way to make low ABV beers, but what if:
1 . Cold steep some quantity of base malt overnight.
2.  Remove grains
3.  Use the NEM "wort" as the brewing mash water for the next beer.

Could this be a way to add flavor and body?

I honestly have no idea.  Even if it would work, its probably more complicated than its worth.

I did something similar years back.  I don't recall noticing any enhanced malt character from it.

[fredthecat]

A few ideas:

You hit on one: use of what I’ll call melatonin-style malts: Amber, Biscuit, Melanoidin, etc.  Other malts like Aromatic or Munich give a maltiness to the beer but 7 SRM might be a tall order for them. Oats tend to give a fuller mouthfeel which can be associated with maltiness.

Another would be using craft malt like Mecca Grade, Root Shoot, Pilot Malt House, etc. or a heritage malt like Maris Otter, Golden Promise, Chevalier, etc... Commodity grade malts don’t seem to have the same je ne sais quoi as some of the craft or heritage malts.

You could adjust processes like using a higher mash temp though I doubt I could tell the difference in a 152°F and 156°F ….or try a decoction mash which is reported to produce more maltiness.

You could go low O2 which is reported to produce a fuller malt flavor.

Brewhaus liquor treatment can influence taste perception. Use more chloride and less/zero sulfate, no bicarbonates, etc.

i chose 7 SRM because it allows for melanoidin/biscuit/amber/abbey malts or low crystal but obviously you'd have to keep it minimal. flaked barley/oats/wheat have even lower SRMs than most base malts, so if you up their ratios you could allow for more kilned malts

haha the minerals beat the question, yeah you could go crazy on mineral ratios i guess.


apparently,
-a 100% Weyermann munich I beer at 1.048 is 9.1SRM.
-a 90% 2row, 10% (1lb) 23Lov biscuit malt at 1.045 is 6.4SRM
-a 100% weyermann vienna at 1.048 is 6.3 SRM

A little bit of Victory malt (2-3%?), a good portion of Vienna malt (not sure, maybe 33-50%?), and Lallemand London yeast for low attenuation around 68-69% but with great flavor that is reasonably neutral (unlike Windsor).

Vienna gives a lot of flavour for its' SRM, I can always tell when its there (at least in my homebrew..).

There are many flavors that come from malt including toasted, honey, grainy, biscuity, etc.  Take a look at the flavor wheel for the Weyermann heirloom malt varieties and try out different malts, both base and specialty, if you don't like what you get from your current grainbill. 

https://www.weyermann.de/en-us/products-2/brewery-2/

For preserving the malt character for a given grain bill, I find that proper water chemisty (i.e. reducing alkalinity), a healthy fermentation, not overboiling, and minimizing O2 pickup (especially post fermentation) helps a lot.

im a fan of weyermann, i always find they deliver on flavour. admittedly i've never had best malz though.

Has anyone played around with Non-Enzymatic Mashing?  I haven't, so apologies if what follows is pretty dumb...

I know NEM has been suggested as a way to make low ABV beers, but what if:
1 . Cold steep some quantity of base malt overnight.
2.  Remove grains
3.  Use the NEM "wort" as the brewing mash water for the next beer.

Could this be a way to add flavor and body?

I honestly have no idea.  Even if it would work, its probably more complicated than its worth.

I love this idea and thought of it a while ago I think. Cold steeping dark roasted grains can definitely add colour and roast without astringency, etc. I've done it before.

I think there is some really interesting merit in something like coldsteeping 2lbs of vienna (what.. 3 dollars?)

Careful choice of maltster makes a lot of difference. Something like Crisp Plumage Archer is only 1.9L yet has an amazing malt flavor. Base malt is not just base malt.

i know that traditional/artisanal maltsters matter, a goal for the next brewing season is to seek out some of them, theyre harder to get up here ie. MG, sugarcreek etc

[chinaski]

Choose a high quality base malt with some character and a bit of munich in the grist.  Boil down a small portion of the runnings to add back to the kettle.  I do this sometimes with extra runnings and I think it does what you need.

[mabrungard]

I can attest that keeping oxygen out of your entire mashing process (LODO) does make a difference in enhancing malt flavor.  It's difficult to do with many brewing systems, but its worth it if you can get there.

[Thirsty_Monk]

Has anyone played around with Non-Enzymatic Mashing?  I haven't, so apologies if what follows is pretty dumb...

I know NEM has been suggested as a way to make low ABV beers, but what if:
1 . Cold steep some quantity of base malt overnight.
2.  Remove grains
3.  Use the NEM "wort" as the brewing mash water for the next beer.

Could this be a way to add flavor and body?

I honestly have no idea.  Even if it would work, its probably more complicated than its worth.

I did something similar years back.  I don't recall noticing any enhanced malt character from it.

Is NEM new holy grail in home brew community after waive of LODO is over?

Just asking for a friend.

[denny]

Has anyone played around with Non-Enzymatic Mashing?  I haven't, so apologies if what follows is pretty dumb...

I know NEM has been suggested as a way to make low ABV beers, but what if:
1 . Cold steep some quantity of base malt overnight.
2.  Remove grains
3.  Use the NEM "wort" as the brewing mash water for the next beer.

Could this be a way to add flavor and body?

I honestly have no idea.  Even if it would work, its probably more complicated than its worth.

I did something similar years back.  I don't recall noticing any enhanced malt character from it.

Is NEM new holy grail in home brew community after waive of LODO is over?

Just asking for a friend.

 

Doubtful...I hope! It's an interesting technique, but I didn't find my use for it other than satisfying my curiosity. George Fix write about Maryann Gruber of Briess doing it back around 2000. Aaron Hyde did some work with it when he was at Briess maybe 5 years ago.  We were gonna do an experiment on it for the podcast, but after consulting with IGORs we couldn't come up with a methodology for the experiment.

And to be truthful, it's not really non enzymatic. You don't activate enzymes during the steep, but you do when you bring the steeped liquid to a boil.

[Thirsty_Monk]

Has anyone played around with Non-Enzymatic Mashing?  I haven't, so apologies if what follows is pretty dumb...

I know NEM has been suggested as a way to make low ABV beers, but what if:
1 . Cold steep some quantity of base malt overnight.
2.  Remove grains
3.  Use the NEM "wort" as the brewing mash water for the next beer.

Could this be a way to add flavor and body?

I honestly have no idea.  Even if it would work, its probably more complicated than its worth.

I did something similar years back.  I don't recall noticing any enhanced malt character from it.

Is NEM new holy grail in home brew community after waive of LODO is over?

Just asking for a friend.

 

Doubtful...I hope! It's an interesting technique, but I didn't find my use for it other than satisfying my curiosity. George Fix write about Maryann Gruber of Briess doing it back around 2000. Aaron Hyde did some work with it when he was at Briess maybe 5 years ago.  We were gonna do an experiment on it for the podcast, but after consulting with IGORs we couldn't come up with a methodology for the experiment.

And to be truthful, it's not really non enzymatic. You don't activate enzymes during the steep, but you do when you bring the steeped liquid to a boil.

Yes because otherwise you would have starch haze.

Thank you

[denny]

Over at Briess's blog:

Cold Extraction of Malt Components and Their Use in Brewing Applications (Feb 2020)
https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/blog/cold-extraction-of-malt-components-and-their-use-in-brewing-applications

IIRC, there were also a couple of articles published in the 2016 time frame but those may only be available in the "internet archives".

Have you tried it?