[hopfenundmalz]

But there seems to be an undercurrent of dissuasion to pursue a better quality beer, in this case light German lagers. 

These LODO posts are predicated on the assumption that LODO-brewed lagers taste far superior to non-LODO-brewed lagers, and are much closer to authentic "German-ness". This may very well be true. Unfortunately, I have never had the opportunity to verify this assumption for myself. No one in my circle of homebrewing friends is a LODO brewer. Until I can taste LODO beers for myself, it's hard for me to accept such claims automatically--even if there is sound science behind them. I have tasted some truly exceptional, authentic German-style lagers that were definitely not LODO-brewed, both commercial ones and homebrewed ones. And I have had plenty of "reality astonishes theory" moments where what happened in my garage did not strictly conform to lab science published in the literature.

I am not denying any benefits of LODO brewing or that HSA is real yada yada yada. But I am not going to make relatively large and time-consuming changes to my processes until I get a sense of the ROI. Tasting LODO-homebrewed beer would give me this. Until I can taste and evaluate LODO beers for myself, and subsequently be convinced of how superior they are, it's moot for me to think about.

I'm not a strict follower of LODO. I have tasted beer made by one of it's advocates and found it interesting. To me it tasted richer than I was used to, but had a component of corn. Not DMS, more like the cereal from years ago "Old Fashion Corn Flakes". Interesting Bamforth describes malt flavors as having a touch of corn that is not DMS. To me it has a Frito's like flavor. I have tasted it in fresh German beer. I 'm really not a fan of it, so I changed the malt bill to reduce this flavor, but that's just me.

Never the less, I've learned a lot about mashing beyond the basics because of it. I still use some methods, but others are not practical with my current setup. The biggest thing it did for me was to make me aware of the damaging effects of cold side aeration. This is a huge problem for any brewer, whether they believe or not. I started fermenting in kegs and started doing completely closed transfers to avoid oxygen. It wasn't until I started fermenting under pressure and spunding that I saw some significant gains in the quality of my beer. My scores in homebrew competitions reflected the improvement.

I think the LODO movement is a good thing, it led me down paths I normally wouldn't have gone. I want to learn and if possible teach others that are interested. I think it would be good to have an attitude of "Let the man speak". If it's true, we all benefit. If it's false, it will eventually be exposed. So far, much of it has been true.

Corn has flavor and aromas in addition to DMS. Corn tortillas are deffinately corn, but i don't  get DMS from those.

I'm  not sure  about old fassioned corn flakes, but the ones on my shelf lists Barley Malt Extract as an ingredient.  It give a better flavor than just corn.

[Richard]

...

4. The LODO target is Augustiner or Ayinger or Hofbrāu or Tegernsee or Schönram Helles drank from barrel or tap at their best possible location. (You can do the same with Pilsner.)
If the flavor of your Helles is in this ballpark, continue to do whatever you are doing.

I am not a big fan of Helles of any kind and am not interested in brewing one. This single-minded focus on one type of beer is something that turns me off in LODO discussions.

Respectfully, your comment is like going into the Saison thread and stating that you are turned off by pepper-phenolics. Like going into the hazy IPA thread to say that you only like clear beers. The talk was about pale lagers. This thread was about pale lagers.  All the evidence is collected in pale lagers. 
Does it apply to lambics or gueuze? Probably not. Does cold side oxidation matter for these beers? Oxidation is a feature of these beers.

You're right, and I apologize. I will go pour myself a weizen.

[mabrungard]

…
"Hot side aeration.. like I say, I’m not saying that air pick up in a brewhouse is not significant, I’m not saying that it’s insignificant, but you know that all comes before the yeast, and yeast is a great friend to the brewer because not only can yeast mop up oxygen it can also mop up a lot of the carbonyl compounds which contribute to aging. So if your yeast is healthy and your yeast is being looked after and reused properly it can do an awful lot of good. And you know I’m associated with Sierra Nevada these days and you know, natural conditioning, having yeast at the bottom of the bottle is a very valuable thing to have there because it’s mopping up oxygen it’s mopping up age character. So um, so I, I agree with what Jens has said, there is a lot, there is very complicated thing, but, but if I was to invest, let’s put it this way Doug, if I was to invest my money in best possible packaging equipment and refrigerated distribution, I would spend my money there before I would spend it on minimizing oxygen uptake in the brewhouse."
…

Well, there's a problem with this.  Bamforth's statement is focused on compounds associated with aging and oxygen scavenging to avoid it.  But there is more to this.

There are organic compounds in malt that can be oxidized with oxygen contact. Once they're oxidized, they can't be recovered or reconstituted.  Rich, deep, malty flavors are a casualty of oxidation.  In the beers that benefit from having those flavors, oxidation reduction in your brewery and practices can be worthwhile. 

[Bilsch]

spot on.  Which is pretty much what I said…

No it actually isn't. This is your statement to which I took issue.

"So… even the experts can’t agree with what to do about it.  While some like Dr Charlie Bamforth say “I wouldn’t waste my time and effort on that.”  Others may disagree and choose to absolutely focus time and effort in that area."

Bamforth absolutely did not say he wouldn't waste his time and effort on that.

[lupulus]

3. Great LODO pale lager beers don't advance in major competitions because they all have sulfur (SO2). An Augustiner Helles at the brewery won't score above 30-35 in a major competition. BJCP only added sulfur to the guidelines in 2021 (it has been in European guidelines forever).
3b. What BJCP describes as the standard Helles is a beer brewed 6 months ago and shipped across the Atlantic.

I disagree with this notion. I have been advanced and medaled at a national level with LODO methods. Sulfur compounds are part of nearly every lager fermentation. It varies each yeast strain, but it's rare not to smell some sort of sulfur coming from the fermenter a few days into fermentation. I choose yeasts that reduce this sulfur, such as 34/70 and 2124. It's still there, but aging can reduce or eliminate it from the beer. If there is sulfur in a beer it should be very low, if at all. It's possible to use LODO and still produce low levels of sulfur.

I had a judge comment on this with an American Lager that won a gold. He mentioned "a low level of sulfur adds complexity to the malt character". It was very low, but it was there. I didn't use LODO on that beer. Sulfur can add to the enjoyment of a beer as long as it's restrained.

But this is just anecdotal ...

I surveyed BJCP judges and more than half would not allow sulfur in a Helles.
See below (source Facebook BJCP) for the survey.
I also know that at 2021 NHC all Helles with SO2 failed to advance (comment from judge at the table).
Of course I know more than one advanced judge that agrees that sulfur is needed in a Helles and I lobbied one of them to update BJCP. His statement on sulfur was Incorporated into the 2021 edition of the guidelines.
At least it's optional now...

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[chinaski]

I'm not a strict follower of LODO. I have tasted beer made by one of it's advocates and found it interesting. To me it tasted richer than I was used to, but had a component of corn. Not DMS, more like the cereal from years ago "Old Fashion Corn Flakes". Interesting Bamforth describes malt flavors as having a touch of corn that is not DMS. To me it has a Frito's like flavor. I have tasted it in fresh German beer. I 'm really not a fan of it, so I changed the malt bill to reduce this flavor, but that's just me.

Assuming that all LODO beers have this flavor and people prefer that it not be present, are they "wrong?"  Is it possible that using all the LODO methods results in beer with no oxygen problems but doesn't taste as good as the non-LODO equivalent?  Not sure if the argument by the OP is to try it and see, or try it and stick with it because that's what commercial brewers do.

[BrewBama]

spot on.  Which is pretty much what I said…

No it actually isn't. This is your statement to which I took issue.

"So… even the experts can’t agree with what to do about it.  While some like Dr Charlie Bamforth say “I wouldn’t waste my time and effort on that.”  Others may disagree and choose to absolutely focus time and effort in that area."

Bamforth absolutely did not say he wouldn't waste his time and effort on that.

Oh… my fault. I thought you meant my synopsis of his statements in post No 35. You meant the Bamforth quote in post No 21. Pardon me.

However, he did say that. That quote was from Beersmith "Flavor Stability" podcast #74 (2014).

Assuming that all LODO beers have this flavor and people prefer that it not be present, are they "wrong?"  Is it possible that using all the LODO methods results in beer with no oxygen problems but doesn't taste as good as the non-LODO equivalent?  …

I captured this slide from a presentation by Dr Fritzsche:

[lupulus]

I'm not a strict follower of LODO. I have tasted beer made by one of it's advocates and found it interesting. To me it tasted richer than I was used to, but had a component of corn. Not DMS, more like the cereal from years ago "Old Fashion Corn Flakes". Interesting Bamforth describes malt flavors as having a touch of corn that is not DMS. To me it has a Frito's like flavor. I have tasted it in fresh German beer. I 'm really not a fan of it, so I changed the malt bill to reduce this flavor, but that's just me.

Assuming that all LODO beers have this flavor and people prefer that it not be present, are they "wrong?"  Is it possible that using all the LODO methods results in beer with no oxygen problems but doesn't taste as good as the non-LODO equivalent?  Not sure if the argument by the OP is to try it and see, or try it and stick with it because that's what commercial brewers do.

Taste is individual. Nobody can tell you what you are tasting, only what they are tasting.
Most people don't like beer.  Are they wrong! Most people who like beer drink pale lagers. Are they wrong? Taste panels lowered the IBUs and taste of American lagers to levels that are too low for my liking. Are they wrong?
The only thing you need to interpret is the following: if you wish to make a Helles like Weihenstephan ( or Augustiner or Ayinger), this is what you should do.
It's not better or worse, just different.




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[BrewBama]

…
It's not better or worse, just different.
…

De gustibus non est disputandum

Now this I absolutely agree with.  If all Low O2 enthusiasts — as well as non Low O2 advocates — would frame their comments around this concept the HomeBrew world would be a better place IMO.

I used to tell my children that when we were in foreign countries concerning different cultural practices, food, drink, etc.

[HighVoltageMan!]

I don't look at LODO or other techniques as the only way. There are so many variables even in a Helles that you could brew a good one without LODO. I'm trying to get the maximum amount of flavor without resorting to a high gravity. I'd say the LODO helps, but the biggest impact comes from avoiding post fermentation oxygen ingress. There is a subtlety to the beer that's stands out, the beer is so fresh and remains that way for the entire keg.

As far as judges misjudging beers, well that's just beating a dead horse. It's a very old complaint and a favorite among competitors. Judging is a subjective art. As much as we want it to be objective, it's not. Brew great beer consistently and eventually you'll hit your mark. We all love the judge that gives us the gold and despise the one who didn't.

[POPTOP]

Tobias and Scott have so much experience! It was wonderful hearing such detail from both breweries. Especially Weihenstephaner. In past interviews, they've been more reluctant to share many details, but Tobias was very forthcoming this time.

Cheers,
Doug

[Cliffs]

I for the life of me cant understand why anyone would like the taste of sulfur in something you are drinking. To each their own I suppose, but the taste and smell of sulfur is just gross to me, and its a reason I dont enjoy quitye a few lagers, including many of the "great ones"

[duelerx]

I for the life of me cant understand why anyone would like the taste of sulfur in something you are drinking. To each their own I suppose, but the taste and smell of sulfur is just gross to me, and its a reason I dont enjoy quitye a few lagers, including many of the "great ones"

Same as some people cant stand a little of DMS or Diacetyl, some styles are ok to have a little bit. I would not critice the flavor of Diacetyl of a tap Pilsner Urquell.

[lupulus]

I for the life of me cant understand why anyone would like the taste of sulfur in something you are drinking. To each their own I suppose, but the taste and smell of sulfur is just gross to me, and its a reason I dont enjoy quitye a few lagers, including many of the "great ones"

Just a hypothetical...
Would it be douchy to go to:

The West coast IPA thread to state how gross high bitterness is

The Saison thread to state how gross phenols are

The Imperial stout thread to state how undrinkable these high FG are

The Lambic thread to state how gross and upsetting to your stomach the acidity is

The hazies thread to state how gross cloudy beers are

The AHA Forum to state how gross most beers are and how much better wine is

Asking for a friend.

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[denny]

I think Cliff was mainly referring to his own perceptions, but yeah, he maybe could have put it better.  I'm not a  fan of helles myself because I perceive it as too sweet for my tastes.  That's not a knock against the style or the people who enjoy it.  It's simply a description of my perception.