[denny]

Or that German beer is superior.  It's different, it's good, but it's not necessarily better in any objective way.

That's a tough one.  If you were in Munich, your everyday beer would be some kind of helles that was made by a brewery that makes excellent beer.  If you were in many American towns and cities, "everyday" beer might be Coors or Bud or Miller (or Corona or Heineken or Modelo or whatever) and I would personally say that the well-made helles is far superior.  That might not be fair because even though they're "everyday" beers, they're not really the same.  The US makes styles that are not made in Germany and I happen to know that many Germans (and Czechs and Austrians) are loving hoppy US styles so in Germany they might say that OUR beer is better primarily because it's harder for them to get.  I sat at a table in Vienna drinking US-inspired IPA and everyone sitting with us mentioned how much they like it.  When I was thinking of "everyday" beer drinkers I envisioned St. Louis because it's the home of Bud.  But Urban Chestnut is also in St. Louis and makes a lot of fantastic German-inspired beers including a Zwickl and a Pilsner that are absolutely fantastic.  If they make a Marzen or Festbier, my guess is that it's outstanding.

And there's the crux of it....it comes down to preference.  There is nothing objective about it, and there really can't be, other than well made or poorly made.  A well made beer in a style you don't like is as valid as a well made beer in a style you do like.  And to counter your German example, there's a proliferation of American style IPA in Belgium.

[Village Taphouse]

And to counter your German example, there's a proliferation of American style IPA in Belgium.

Yes, I've heard that.

I was at a place called 1516 Brewing Company in Vienna.  We walked in and on the chalkboard was a lot of beers you might expect... pilsner, helles, dark lagers, etc. but then I saw Victory Hop Devil IPA.  I looked at the beertender and I was like WHA? and he smiled and laughed and said, "We make their recipe here in Vienna" and he pointed to the brewing equipment behind a glass wall.  So my wife and I ordered two and then sat at a picnic table with a bunch of Austrians and they were all drinking the IPA.  As I looked around the biergarten, everyone seemed to be drinking it.  Someone there was probably thinking that US beer is better than Euro beer. 

[denny]

And to counter your German example, there's a proliferation of American style IPA in Belgium.

Yes, I've heard that.

I was at a place in Vienna called 1516 Brewing Company in Vienna.  We walked in and on the chalkboard was a lot of beers you might expect... pilsner, helles, dark lagers, etc. but then I saw Victory Hop Devil IPA.  I looked at the beertender and I was like WHA? and he smiled and laughed and said, "We make their recipe here in Vienna" and he pointed to the brewing equipment behind a glass wall.  So my wife and I ordered two and then sat at a picnic table with a bunch of Austrians and they were all drinking the IPA.  As I looked around the biergarten, everyone seemed to be drinking it.  Someone there was probably thinking that US beer is better than Euro beer.

Or that they simply preferred it.  We need to get past thinking that one is "better" than the other.  It's all preference.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Don't let your romantic notions get in the way of simple reality.

lol, we're in a thread debating the differences between festbier and maerzen and clearly inferior american malts  . the whole thread is about romantic notions.

I think the idea that European malts are superior to American malts is a romantic notion. Intended for different purposes, sure, but neither is superior or inferior.

Or that German beer is superior.  It's different, it's good, but it's not necessarily better in any objective way.

Warning: Bias Alert.
No beer consumer that I know drinks beer with objective taste buds. It's all subjective. Given a choice between a German Pils, and a North American Industrial Lager (NAIL), both on draft, I will take the German beverage most of the time. And that is my very subjective viewpoint.

This has to be qualified...the beers have to be fresh, less than 3 months old.

A beer that I did like from Sierra Nevada was Summerfest. No longer available.

And yes, it's all the preference of the consumer.

[Big_Eight]

Everyday beer will be different for everybody. For instance I walk across a grass field to my local brewery and drink their house kolsch often that's my normal beer lol.

[Slowbrew]

And to counter your German example, there's a proliferation of American style IPA in Belgium.

Yes, I've heard that.

I was at a place in Vienna called 1516 Brewing Company in Vienna.  We walked in and on the chalkboard was a lot of beers you might expect... pilsner, helles, dark lagers, etc. but then I saw Victory Hop Devil IPA.  I looked at the beertender and I was like WHA? and he smiled and laughed and said, "We make their recipe here in Vienna" and he pointed to the brewing equipment behind a glass wall.  So my wife and I ordered two and then sat at a picnic table with a bunch of Austrians and they were all drinking the IPA.  As I looked around the biergarten, everyone seemed to be drinking it.  Someone there was probably thinking that US beer is better than Euro beer.

Or that they simply preferred it.  We need to get past thinking that one is "better" than the other.  It's all preference.

I agree that being a German beer doesn't automatically make it better than others but drinking beer in Germany is very often preferable to drinking at home.   

Sorry, looking at pictures from our last trip to Bavaria.   

Paul

[Bel Air Brewing]

And to counter your German example, there's a proliferation of American style IPA in Belgium.

Yes, I've heard that.

I was at a place in Vienna called 1516 Brewing Company in Vienna.  We walked in and on the chalkboard was a lot of beers you might expect... pilsner, helles, dark lagers, etc. but then I saw Victory Hop Devil IPA.  I looked at the beertender and I was like WHA? and he smiled and laughed and said, "We make their recipe here in Vienna" and he pointed to the brewing equipment behind a glass wall.  So my wife and I ordered two and then sat at a picnic table with a bunch of Austrians and they were all drinking the IPA.  As I looked around the biergarten, everyone seemed to be drinking it.  Someone there was probably thinking that US beer is better than Euro beer.

Or that they simply preferred it.  We need to get past thinking that one is "better" than the other.  It's all preference.

I agree that being a German beer doesn't automatically make it better than others but drinking beer in Germany is very often preferable to drinking at home.   

Sorry, looking at pictures from our last trip to Bavaria.   

Paul

Yes. But factor in the cost to get there, hotel, etc., and that is very expensive beer.
We enjoy Germany, and The Netherlands very much. Spent much of my working career over there.
My wife and I go back frequently. But due to COVID, have not been back since February, 2020.

[Wilbur]

Looks like no one has an answer to the serious questions posed in #119.

The biggest question to ask is why would Sierra Nevada want to do this in the first place? Can they not make the beer they want to, without outside help?
And why did they discontinue working with the Germans?

Or maybe, just maybe...the Germans simply said "Nicht mehr".

Would Anheuser-Busch partner with Molson-Coors to produce a seasonal beer?

Would General Motors partner with Ford Motor Company to produce a new sports car?

The SN folks have been going to Germany for years. Hop selection and equipment sourcing trips, for example. Then there is Drinktek (SP). Brewers start friendships. Sierra Nevada is known to be excellent in quality and technichnology. I bumped into the brewer at Mahrs in Bamberg, and he was really excited to have been selected that year, had his Sierra Nevada baseball cap on.

Some of the collaboration brews used malts sourced with the breweries, Steffi for example. There was an older hop used one year, and when they worked with Bitburg the used the Bitburg yeast and hop blend.

Why did they stop? My take is that there were too many other things to take care of. The selection would have happened before Covid hit. The Germans saying no? Turn down the trip to the release event in the USA? I don't think so.

Car companies do work on joint projects fairly often, but not image cars like a sports car. GM and Ford have done joint development on a couple of transmissions (a huge investment), for example. I remember joint projects for different delivery vans.

Uh, you seem to be forgetting about the Pontiac Vibe, a collaboration between Pontiac and Toyota? Where GM got a small car and learned engineering techniques and Toyota got something probably. Caterpillar and Navistar made an on highway truck together. BMW and Toyota teamed up to release the Z4 (BMW) and Supra (Toyota).

I don't know if there's a brewery that compares to Sierra Nevada. I can't think of one that has such a large distribution area that's independent, supports sustainability, and keeps their beer affordable. I can grab a 6 pack for $8-9.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[Iliff Ave]

Looks like no one has an answer to the serious questions posed in #119.

The biggest question to ask is why would Sierra Nevada want to do this in the first place? Can they not make the beer they want to, without outside help?
And why did they discontinue working with the Germans?

Or maybe, just maybe...the Germans simply said "Nicht mehr".

Would Anheuser-Busch partner with Molson-Coors to produce a seasonal beer?

Would General Motors partner with Ford Motor Company to produce a new sports car?

The SN folks have been going to Germany for years. Hop selection and equipment sourcing trips, for example. Then there is Drinktek (SP). Brewers start friendships. Sierra Nevada is known to be excellent in quality and technichnology. I bumped into the brewer at Mahrs in Bamberg, and he was really excited to have been selected that year, had his Sierra Nevada baseball cap on.

Some of the collaboration brews used malts sourced with the breweries, Steffi for example. There was an older hop used one year, and when they worked with Bitburg the used the Bitburg yeast and hop blend.

Why did they stop? My take is that there were too many other things to take care of. The selection would have happened before Covid hit. The Germans saying no? Turn down the trip to the release event in the USA? I don't think so.

Car companies do work on joint projects fairly often, but not image cars like a sports car. GM and Ford have done joint development on a couple of transmissions (a huge investment), for example. I remember joint projects for different delivery vans.

Uh, you seem to be forgetting about the Pontiac Vibe, a collaboration between Pontiac and Toyota? Where GM got a small car and learned engineering techniques and Toyota got something probably. Caterpillar and Navistar made an on highway truck together. BMW and Toyota teamed up to release the Z4 (BMW) and Supra (Toyota).

I don't know if there's a brewery that compares to Sierra Nevada. I can't think of one that has such a large distribution area that's independent, supports sustainability, and keeps their beer affordable. I can grab a 6 pack for $8-9.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Regardless if you like the beer or not, new Belgium is carbon neutral. The first one I think but not sure.  They’re independent as well. Compares a lot to SN

[Big_Eight]

Looks like no one has an answer to the serious questions posed in #119.

The biggest question to ask is why would Sierra Nevada want to do this in the first place? Can they not make the beer they want to, without outside help?
And why did they discontinue working with the Germans?

Or maybe, just maybe...the Germans simply said "Nicht mehr".

Would Anheuser-Busch partner with Molson-Coors to produce a seasonal beer?

Would General Motors partner with Ford Motor Company to produce a new sports car?

The SN folks have been going to Germany for years. Hop selection and equipment sourcing trips, for example. Then there is Drinktek (SP). Brewers start friendships. Sierra Nevada is known to be excellent in quality and technichnology. I bumped into the brewer at Mahrs in Bamberg, and he was really excited to have been selected that year, had his Sierra Nevada baseball cap on.

Some of the collaboration brews used malts sourced with the breweries, Steffi for example. There was an older hop used one year, and when they worked with Bitburg the used the Bitburg yeast and hop blend.

Why did they stop? My take is that there were too many other things to take care of. The selection would have happened before Covid hit. The Germans saying no? Turn down the trip to the release event in the USA? I don't think so.

Car companies do work on joint projects fairly often, but not image cars like a sports car. GM and Ford have done joint development on a couple of transmissions (a huge investment), for example. I remember joint projects for different delivery vans.

Uh, you seem to be forgetting about the Pontiac Vibe, a collaboration between Pontiac and Toyota? Where GM got a small car and learned engineering techniques and Toyota got something probably. Caterpillar and Navistar made an on highway truck together. BMW and Toyota teamed up to release the Z4 (BMW) and Supra (Toyota).

I don't know if there's a brewery that compares to Sierra Nevada. I can't think of one that has such a large distribution area that's independent, supports sustainability, and keeps their beer affordable. I can grab a 6 pack for $8-9.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Regardless if you like the beer or not, new Belgium is carbon neutral. The first one I think but not sure.  They’re independent as well. Compares a lot to SN

They sold out in 2019.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisfurnari/2019/11/19/new-belgium-brewing-announces-sale-to-kirin-subsidiary-as-craft-beer-ma-heats-up/

[Bel Air Brewing]

Not sure what if anything this has to do with Marzen, but being "carbon neutral" is never a consideration when ordering a beer in a bar, or buying a case at the store. I actually like carbon dioxide. Can't get enough of it!

[Iliff Ave]

Not sure what if anything this has to do with Marzen, but being "carbon neutral" is never a consideration when ordering a beer in a bar, or buying a case at the store. I actually like carbon dioxide. Can't get enough of it!

How dare we go off topic on this enthralling thread. Don’t even get me started on Americans trying to brew Kolsch…

[Iliff Ave]

Looks like no one has an answer to the serious questions posed in #119.

The biggest question to ask is why would Sierra Nevada want to do this in the first place? Can they not make the beer they want to, without outside help?
And why did they discontinue working with the Germans?

Or maybe, just maybe...the Germans simply said "Nicht mehr".

Would Anheuser-Busch partner with Molson-Coors to produce a seasonal beer?

Would General Motors partner with Ford Motor Company to produce a new sports car?

The SN folks have been going to Germany for years. Hop selection and equipment sourcing trips, for example. Then there is Drinktek (SP). Brewers start friendships. Sierra Nevada is known to be excellent in quality and technichnology. I bumped into the brewer at Mahrs in Bamberg, and he was really excited to have been selected that year, had his Sierra Nevada baseball cap on.

Some of the collaboration brews used malts sourced with the breweries, Steffi for example. There was an older hop used one year, and when they worked with Bitburg the used the Bitburg yeast and hop blend.

Why did they stop? My take is that there were too many other things to take care of. The selection would have happened before Covid hit. The Germans saying no? Turn down the trip to the release event in the USA? I don't think so.

Car companies do work on joint projects fairly often, but not image cars like a sports car. GM and Ford have done joint development on a couple of transmissions (a huge investment), for example. I remember joint projects for different delivery vans.

Uh, you seem to be forgetting about the Pontiac Vibe, a collaboration between Pontiac and Toyota? Where GM got a small car and learned engineering techniques and Toyota got something probably. Caterpillar and Navistar made an on highway truck together. BMW and Toyota teamed up to release the Z4 (BMW) and Supra (Toyota).

I don't know if there's a brewery that compares to Sierra Nevada. I can't think of one that has such a large distribution area that's independent, supports sustainability, and keeps their beer affordable. I can grab a 6 pack for $8-9.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Regardless if you like the beer or not, new Belgium is carbon neutral. The first one I think but not sure.  They’re independent as well. Compares a lot to SN

They sold out in 2019.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisfurnari/2019/11/19/new-belgium-brewing-announces-sale-to-kirin-subsidiary-as-craft-beer-ma-heats-up/

My mistake. I knew they sold but didn’t realize that was who purchased them.

[hopfenundmalz]

Looks like no one has an answer to the serious questions posed in #119.

The biggest question to ask is why would Sierra Nevada want to do this in the first place? Can they not make the beer they want to, without outside help?
And why did they discontinue working with the Germans?

Or maybe, just maybe...the Germans simply said "Nicht mehr".

Would Anheuser-Busch partner with Molson-Coors to produce a seasonal beer?

Would General Motors partner with Ford Motor Company to produce a new sports car?

The SN folks have been going to Germany for years. Hop selection and equipment sourcing trips, for example. Then there is Drinktek (SP). Brewers start friendships. Sierra Nevada is known to be excellent in quality and technichnology. I bumped into the brewer at Mahrs in Bamberg, and he was really excited to have been selected that year, had his Sierra Nevada baseball cap on.

Some of the collaboration brews used malts sourced with the breweries, Steffi for example. There was an older hop used one year, and when they worked with Bitburg the used the Bitburg yeast and hop blend.

Why did they stop? My take is that there were too many other things to take care of. The selection would have happened before Covid hit. The Germans saying no? Turn down the trip to the release event in the USA? I don't think so.

Car companies do work on joint projects fairly often, but not image cars like a sports car. GM and Ford have done joint development on a couple of transmissions (a huge investment), for example. I remember joint projects for different delivery vans.

Uh, you seem to be forgetting about the Pontiac Vibe, a collaboration between Pontiac and Toyota? Where GM got a small car and learned engineering techniques and Toyota got something probably. Caterpillar and Navistar made an on highway truck together. BMW and Toyota teamed up to release the Z4 (BMW) and Supra (Toyota).

I don't know if there's a brewery that compares to Sierra Nevada. I can't think of one that has such a large distribution area that's independent, supports sustainability, and keeps their beer affordable. I can grab a 6 pack for $8-9.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Nah, I worked for GM, chose not to mention it.

How about a Honda V6 in the Saturn Vue? Do you remember that one?

TXFlyGuy, how about Boeing farming out major subsystems.Dreamliner: Where in the world its parts come from

http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/18/news/companies/boeing-dreamliner-parts/index.html

[Bel Air Brewing]

Pardon the thread drift…but since you asked:
That was a huge mistake by Boeing. Many parts did not fit the 787. Made in many countries, so total lack of QC.
A big reason why I stayed on “Big Foot”, the B-777.

Wonder if breweries suffer from QC when they partner up with someone?

edit: the B-777 flies nicer, and lands nicer than the B-787.