[Jayborracho]

Hi all,

I need some help with acid additions for a helles lager.

I have always paid attention to mash ph but I’m interested now in checkin it throughout the process, I’m a bit confused about the process, I’ve heard of letting the boil be higher in ph then dropping it at flame out, I’ve also heard about dropping the pre boil ph(which is different from mash ph?)then lowering it again in the boil, And what about the proper time to do it, would I add the acid after the final hops since they raise ph?

Any insight would help

[Bob357]

If your mash is within a reasonable range, the rest of the process usually follows. You can do a pH adjustment just prior to packaging if you feel so inclined. You can also season the beer with brewing salts at that time.

[allenhuerta]

I've heard some brewer talking about this on Experimental Brewing.. I don't know the process they took, but I think they treated the mash as normal and after flame out made additional adjustments based on what they wanted post fermentation.. but maybe someone with a better memory than me can fill you in.. it was on one of the IPA episodes... I think with Beachwood BBQ.. but again... Don't count on my mind completely.

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[denny]

I've heard some brewer talking about this on Experimental Brewing.. I don't know the process they took, but I think they treated the mash as normal and after flame out made additional adjustments based on what they wanted post fermentation.. but maybe someone with a better memory than me can fill you in.. it was on one of the IPA episodes... I think with Beachwood BBQ.. but again... Don't count on my mind completely.

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Yeah, Beechwood Brewing.  Julian Schrago IIRC.  Fantastic beers.

[BrewBama]

If your mash is within a reasonable range, the rest of the process usually follows. You can do a pH adjustment just prior to packaging if you feel so inclined. You can also season the beer with brewing salts at that time.

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[dbeechum]

Yeah, Beechwood Brewing.  Julian Schrago IIRC.  Fantastic beers.

Right ballpark - Beachwood Brewing, Julian Shrago.

[denny]

Yeah, Beechwood Brewing.  Julian Schrago IIRC.  Fantastic beers.

Right ballpark - Beachwood Brewing, Julian Shrago.

For my memory, that's damn close!

[allenhuerta]

Yeah, Beechwood Brewing.  Julian Schrago IIRC.  Fantastic beers.

Right ballpark - Beachwood Brewing, Julian Shrago.

For my memory, that's damn close!

Good enough for government work.

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[dbeechum]

Yeah, Beechwood Brewing.  Julian Schrago IIRC.  Fantastic beers.

Right ballpark - Beachwood Brewing, Julian Shrago.

For my memory, that's damn close!

Good enough for government work.

And horseshoes and hand grenades!

[BrewNerd]

I say this out of near total ignorance:

I know pH control is important as it speaks to the underlying chemistry of beer flavor creation and brewing efficiency.

Palmer bangs on about it at length in at least three books that I'm aware of so there's something to it in higher level brewing. And you folks sound quite knowledgeable about it.

But how much of a difference do you think it makes to the finished product? Have there been any comparisons of parallel batches with identical grain bills and processes with pH manipulation as a variable?

Could a "normal" person tell the difference?

[Richard]

I say this out of near total ignorance:

I know pH control is important as it speaks to the underlying chemistry of beer flavor creation and brewing efficiency.

Palmer bangs on about it at length in at least three books that I'm aware of so there's something to it in higher level brewing. And you folks sound quite knowledgeable about it.

But how much of a difference do you think it makes to the finished product? Have there been any comparisons of parallel batches with identical grain bills and processes with pH manipulation as a variable?

Could a "normal" person tell the difference?

My first all-grain mash used straight tap water and I got a mash efficiency of 40%. I went to my local homebrew store and after telling them my water source they recommended checking the pH and adjusting with acidulated malt. My next mash had an efficiency of 60%. After some other changes I now have a mash efficiency that is usually 80% - 85%.

You may feel mash pH in your pocketbook even if you can't taste it in your beer.

[Cliffs]

I say this out of near total ignorance:

I know pH control is important as it speaks to the underlying chemistry of beer flavor creation and brewing efficiency.

Palmer bangs on about it at length in at least three books that I'm aware of so there's something to it in higher level brewing. And you folks sound quite knowledgeable about it.

But how much of a difference do you think it makes to the finished product? Have there been any comparisons of parallel batches with identical grain bills and processes with pH manipulation as a variable?

Could a "normal" person tell the difference?

just my 2 cents which shouldnt even be worth that, but I believe IBU extraction in the boil is more efficient at a slightly elevated PH, and clarifying agents are slightly more effective at a slightly lower PH. If you are a pro, brewing a huge amount of beer, extracted a few more IBU's from using less hops and getting a 1 or 2% increase in yield due to better trub coagulation probably translates into a large amount of money and is worth it. On the homebrew scale, it just isnt worth it.
Ive tried adjusting PH throughout the process, and I didnt notice any difference except it being a bigger PITA having to take multiple PH measurements and adding acids at different points.

I now adjust my mash ph to be at about 5.2 for lighter colored beers, and about 5.5 for darker beers. In both cases my ph seems to want to drift to around 5.3-5.4.

[erockrph]

I say this out of near total ignorance:

I know pH control is important as it speaks to the underlying chemistry of beer flavor creation and brewing efficiency.

Palmer bangs on about it at length in at least three books that I'm aware of so there's something to it in higher level brewing. And you folks sound quite knowledgeable about it.

But how much of a difference do you think it makes to the finished product? Have there been any comparisons of parallel batches with identical grain bills and processes with pH manipulation as a variable?

Could a "normal" person tell the difference?

I'd say it depends. I saw a big improvement in the flavor of my stouts and porters when I started targeting a mash pH of 5.6 instead of 5.3. I added citric acid with my dry hops on my most recent IPA and it was easily my favorite heavily-late-hopped IPA I've ever brewed. These specific changes made a significant flavor impact in my brews. Other adjustments I've made have been more subtle, and I can't say for certain that Joe Beerdrinker could pick out the difference.

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[RC]

Could a "normal" person tell the difference?

Yes. Acid can really "brighten up" food flavors, and it does the same with beer.

This doesn't mean go and add acid to your beers, because they might already be within spec for pH. I've found that I don't have to do much for my beers to land at a perfectly acceptable pH, for example, but YMMV and it will very much depend on your source water and the particulars of your process.

But if a beer has too high a final pH, it definitely tastes bland or "flabby," and adding a little acid to it definitely brightens the flavor. Or just monitor and manipulate pH during brewing so you don't have to.

[leejoreilly]

I say this out of near total ignorance:

I know pH control is important as it speaks to the underlying chemistry of beer flavor creation and brewing efficiency.

Palmer bangs on about it at length in at least three books that I'm aware of so there's something to it in higher level brewing. And you folks sound quite knowledgeable about it.

But how much of a difference do you think it makes to the finished product? Have there been any comparisons of parallel batches with identical grain bills and processes with pH manipulation as a variable?

Could a "normal" person tell the difference?

I suspect it's likely a matter of degree. I use BrunWater to calculate my mash and sparge additions (including acid). My first few times making these additions, I faithfully checked my pH all along the process. The mash pH results were always spot on what BW predicted, and the downstream numbers where about what I expected. After a half dozen closely monitored brews, I stopped obsessing and just trusted BW, with great results. I'm guessing that the mash/sparge adjustments deliver a close approximation of the pH results I intend, and that further adjustments may have comparatively minimal effect; sort of a diminishing returns situation. Could I marginally improve my results by chasing interim pH all across the process? Maybe, but I'm not a "super taster"; I don't think I'd be able to notice a significant difference that I could attribute to that level of pH control. So it's just not worth the effort, for me.