[RC]

An update:  I started using Biofine about 5 weeks ago.  When the beer was ready to transfer to the keg (at basement temps), I injected about 30ml of Biofine into the tubing prior to starting the transfer.  The Biofine would hit the bottom of the keg and the beer would be transferred on top, mixing well with the beer.  Every one of the beers I sampled where I used Biofine is really, really cloudy.  One of those kegs is about half full.  Another has had about 10 beers tapped from it.  Others have been sampled with a cobra tap.  Can anyone see a scientific reason why the Biofine would not work?  Something in my water or something with my processes?  I am in the process of making a big batch of gel solution to see if I can clear these kegs up.  I tried a similar Biofine-like product years ago and had the same results.  Cheers guys.

Most fining agents work by pulling "stuff" out of suspension via relatively weak electrostatic attractions. At room temp, there is a lot of kinetic energy in the beer molecules, and the stuff is zipping around so quickly that it overcomes the attraction. Slow the stuff down, and it'll bind. Chilling slows it down. This is why you should only fine after cold-crashing.

The amount of biofine to use to clear a beer is very much dependent on the individual beer. For a given beer, the right way to use biofine is to do trials using small samples of that beer and different amounts of biofine, to see which amount works best. Sounds like a PITA? It is. Which is why no one does this. But this could explain your lack of results.

The king of fining agents is still gelatin, AFAIC. Sorry, vegans.

[Village Taphouse]

The king of fining agents is still gelatin, AFAIC. Sorry, vegans.

I think I have finally determined that after 22 years of brewing.  I have tried a number of other products and processes but I keep coming back to gel.  Another thing about the cold temp situation is that some amount of haze forms at cooler temps and applying the fining agent at that time helps to remove that haze (or the individual components that make the haze?) as well.  Back when I used to use a secondary, I would add a gel solution to the secondary and transfer the beer.  In a day or two I would have a secondary vessel (sitting on my basement floor) that was really clear.  But chilling that beer would create haze and I might see clear beer and I might not.  I feel like getting the beer cold and applying the fining agent is the best approach.

Back on page 1 of this thread I mentioned brewers who say their beers clear without fining agents and I *STILL* don't know why that works for some and not others.   

[beersk]

The king of fining agents is still gelatin, AFAIC. Sorry, vegans.

I think I have finally determined that after 22 years of brewing.  I have tried a number of other products and processes but I keep coming back to gel.  Another thing about the cold temp situation is that some amount of haze forms at cooler temps and applying the fining agent at that time helps to remove that haze (or the individual components that make the haze?) as well.  Back when I used to use a secondary, I would add a gel solution to the secondary and transfer the beer.  In a day or two I would have a secondary vessel (sitting on my basement floor) that was really clear.  But chilling that beer would create haze and I might see clear beer and I might not.  I feel like getting the beer cold and applying the fining agent is the best approach.

Back on page 1 of this thread I mentioned brewers who say their beers clear without fining agents and I *STILL* don't know why that works for some and not others.   

It comes back full circle... No one has provided a solid answer?

[Village Taphouse]

It comes back full circle... No one has provided a solid answer?

For why some people get clear beer without finings?  No.

Any issues that I was having looks like it may have been a combination of a weak boil and also my use of Biofine when the beer was not COLD.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

[beersk]

It comes back full circle... No one has provided a solid answer?

For why some people get clear beer without finings?  No.

Any issues that I was having looks like it may have been a combination of a weak boil and also my use of Biofine when the beer was not COLD.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

Case closed. Good luck with your future endeavors

[Village Taphouse]

Okay, I know I will sound crazy (crazier?) but every one of these beers where I used Biofine seems to have an issue with the head on the beer. The head dissipates very quickly.  I bought this Biofine from AIH in Michigan and when it arrived it was already very close to the expiration date which does not say much for them.  I have never had a head issue like this.  The cloudy Biofine beers eventually cleared nicely because I used a gel solution on them.  I have some beers in the pipeline where I will not use Biofine and I will be interested in seeing the clarity and also the head formation and stability.  I have to assume that I am the only one seeing this, right?  I know a lot of people using Biofine with good results. 

[neuse]

Okay, I know I will sound crazy (crazier?) but every one of these beers where I used Biofine seems to have an issue with the head on the beer. The head dissipates very quickly.  I bought this Biofine from AIH in Michigan and when it arrived it was already very close to the expiration date which does not say much for them.  I have never had a head issue like this.  The cloudy Biofine beers eventually cleared nicely because I used a gel solution on them.  I have some beers in the pipeline where I will not use Biofine and I will be interested in seeing the clarity and also the head formation and stability.  I have to assume that I am the only one seeing this, right?  I know a lot of people using Biofine with good results. 

I tried an extra large dose of Irish Moss on one batch (2-1/2 tsp in a 5 gallon batch IIRC) in an effort to eliminate chill haze. It worked for the chill haze but the beer had very poor head retention - similar to your experience. I guess it removed too much of the proteins.

[Village Taphouse]

Okay, I know I will sound crazy (crazier?) but every one of these beers where I used Biofine seems to have an issue with the head on the beer. The head dissipates very quickly.  I bought this Biofine from AIH in Michigan and when it arrived it was already very close to the expiration date which does not say much for them.  I have never had a head issue like this.  The cloudy Biofine beers eventually cleared nicely because I used a gel solution on them.  I have some beers in the pipeline where I will not use Biofine and I will be interested in seeing the clarity and also the head formation and stability.  I have to assume that I am the only one seeing this, right?  I know a lot of people using Biofine with good results. 

I tried an extra large dose of Irish Moss on one batch (2-1/2 tsp in a 5 gallon batch IIRC) in an effort to eliminate chill haze. It worked for the chill haze but the beer had very poor head retention - similar to your experience. I guess it removed too much of the proteins.

Interesting.  I feel like every time I deviate from my normal routine to try to improve things I end up making things worse.  I should just stick to what I've been doing and stop tinkering! 

[neuse]

Interesting.  I feel like every time I deviate from my normal routine to try to improve things I end up making things worse.  I should just stick to what I've been doing and stop tinkering! 

Where's the fun in that?

[denny]

Okay, I know I will sound crazy (crazier?) but every one of these beers where I used Biofine seems to have an issue with the head on the beer. The head dissipates very quickly.  I bought this Biofine from AIH in Michigan and when it arrived it was already very close to the expiration date which does not say much for them.  I have never had a head issue like this.  The cloudy Biofine beers eventually cleared nicely because I used a gel solution on them.  I have some beers in the pipeline where I will not use Biofine and I will be interested in seeing the clarity and also the head formation and stability.  I have to assume that I am the only one seeing this, right?  I know a lot of people using Biofine with good results. 

I tried an extra large dose of Irish Moss on one batch (2-1/2 tsp in a 5 gallon batch IIRC) in an effort to eliminate chill haze. It worked for the chill haze but the beer had very poor head retention - similar to your experience. I guess it removed too much of the proteins.

Interesting.  I feel like every time I deviate from my normal routine to try to improve things I end up making things worse.  I should just stick to what I've been doing and stop tinkering! 

Ken, that's the discovery I made a long, long time go.

[narcout]

I tried an extra large dose of Irish Moss on one batch (2-1/2 tsp in a 5 gallon batch IIRC) in an effort to eliminate chill haze. It worked for the chill haze but the beer had very poor head retention - similar to your experience. I guess it removed too much of the proteins.

There are two interesting graphs in Principles of Brewing Science that show the relative effects of both Irish Moss and silica gel on haze active and foam active proteins.

[Village Taphouse]

I tried an extra large dose of Irish Moss on one batch (2-1/2 tsp in a 5 gallon batch IIRC) in an effort to eliminate chill haze. It worked for the chill haze but the beer had very poor head retention - similar to your experience. I guess it removed too much of the proteins.

There are two interesting graphs in Principles of Brewing Science that show the relative effects of both Irish Moss and silica gel on haze active and foam active proteins.

That's for that.  So from that we can learn that too much Irish Moss can have a larger impact on head formation and stability than too much gel?  Biofine is a colloidal silicon dioxide (is that right?) so it suggests that too much Biofine would not impact head, correct? 

[Village Taphouse]

I wanted to bounce something off the expert panel here on AHA on this topic.  One constant that I see when I have a beer that is stubborn to clear goes like this:  I go to tap a beer and I get some clear beer (proabably in the line) and then I see a good sized-blob of something cloudy and then I get semi-clear beer.  That first glass of beer is VERY cloudy.  As the session continues the beer is clearer but not CRYSTAL clear and it stays that way for the rest of the session.  The next time the beer is tapped (days later or whatever) the same thing happens.  Very cloudy first glass followed by clearer beer the rest of the session.  When my beers clear properly, the first glass of the keg might be cloudy as expected but subsequent beers are clear and the first pour of any session is clear.  Does this one piece of information suggest anything?  How could suspended [whatever] continue to be in the keg like that so that the first pour of every session is so unbelievably cloudy?  The good news is that more recent batches have been better (clear from the start) so whatever it was might be in the rear-view mirror.  Cheers Beerheads.

[tommymorris]

That sounds like sediment that is being stirred up by the turbulence of serving a beer.   Maybe that sediment gets stirred up and then sucked out of the dip tube into the first few beers and then its gone for that session. 

I wonder how the yeast variety plays in as in some yeasts pack more firmly.

[Village Taphouse]

That sounds like sediment that is being stirred up by the turbulence of serving a beer.   Maybe that sediment gets stirred up and then sucked out of the dip tube into the first few beers and then its gone for that session. 

I wonder how the yeast variety plays in as in some yeasts pack more firmly.

Well, the kegs are not moved and when things are right then this does not happen where it seems like something is getting stirred up.  It's very strange because you would think that the entire keg would be cloudy consistently.  This almost feels like there is some kind of stratification of the haze or else the haze falls when the beer is not being served but is then suspended during the session.  I know that makes absolutely no sense but it has happened here on some batches and it's consistent.  I'll add this:  I did try to use BioFine on some batches where I added it to the keg and transferred on top when the beer was at basement temps.  Those beers did not clear and so I used a gel solution and I just wonder if the BioFine + gel solution together would cause a problem.  That seems unlikely too.  Sometimes there are things that happen and I have no idea why and it frosts my flakes a little bit because I would like to know how to avoid it in the future.