[Saccharomyces]

What is interesting to me about Dreher, is he is credited with bringing new processes, techniques, and a new beer "style" to Austria. He's also credited with created vienna malt. In fairness, his life-long friend and friendly competitor, Gabriel Sedimayr did something similarly successful to a failing brewery in Munich named Spaten. I wonder what these guys would have thought if someone told them their beers do not meet a guideline like the BJCP? I'm not trying to start a conversation on that subject, just personally think its interesting.

Anton Dreher receives more credit due the shear size of his business holdings.

[Bel Air Brewing]

It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.

It's also too sweet now days. I used to really enjoy it but not any more. If I'm at a Mexican Restaurant I'll go for the Dos Equis if it's on draft. Not great, but Hey! The Mexican food around here sucks so bad the Dos Equis taste like a golden dram ...

If the Mexican food sucks, you are living in the wrong state!

I can cook and I like where I live. Plus, I'm pickier than most.

I can cook, and pride myself on being an amateur chef! I like where we live, plus we are very picky. And...we have great Tex-Mex Restaurants all over the place! Sometimes we will slip South-Of-The-Border for some good Mexican. But when in Nuevo Progresso, I drink Margaritas!

If beer is required when in Progresso, Modelo Especial is the beverage of choice.

[fredthecat]

What is interesting to me about Dreher, is he is credited with bringing new processes, techniques, and a new beer "style" to Austria. He's also credited with created vienna malt. In fairness, his life-long friend and friendly competitor, Gabriel Sedimayr did something similarly successful to a failing brewery in Munich named Spaten. I wonder what these guys would have thought if someone told them their beers do not meet a guideline like the BJCP? I'm not trying to start a conversation on that subject, just personally think its interesting.

Anton Dreher receives more credit due the shear size of his business holdings.

i was reading a bit more, and i think i found that anton dreher wanted to replicate english malt by learning about their kilning process - for one coal(coke?) fired ovens. i believe it said that essentially he created vienna malt.

learning about the creation of vienna lager was fascinating, as it shows an early 1800s europe in which beer from the united kingdom is by far the KING for true commercial quality and consistency beer.

[Bel Air Brewing]

This may be over kill, but here is another good article:

Grain Bill:
The main ingredient of any good example of Vienna malt is, of course Vienna malt. Depending on whom you ask, a Vienna Lager recipe in its simplest and, some may consider best form, would be 100% Vienna malt. This malt brings the rich toasty slightly nutty malt aspect.

https://learn.kegerator.com/vienna-lager/

[erockrph]

What is interesting to me about Dreher, is he is credited with bringing new processes, techniques, and a new beer "style" to Austria. He's also credited with created vienna malt. In fairness, his life-long friend and friendly competitor, Gabriel Sedimayr did something similarly successful to a failing brewery in Munich named Spaten. I wonder what these guys would have thought if someone told them their beers do not meet a guideline like the BJCP? I'm not trying to start a conversation on that subject, just personally think its interesting.

Anton Dreher receives more credit due the shear size of his business holdings.

i was reading a bit more, and i think i found that anton dreher wanted to replicate english malt by learning about their kilning process - for one coal(coke?) fired ovens. i believe it said that essentially he created vienna malt.

learning about the creation of vienna lager was fascinating, as it shows an early 1800s europe in which beer from the united kingdom is by far the KING for true commercial quality and consistency beer.

Interesting. This explains why Vienna malt tastes kinda close to English Pale Ale malt to me.

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[beersk]

Good thread, fellas! Enjoyed the discussion so far. I am going to drop any debittered black malt addition in my future Vienna lagers. I currently have a sack of Munton's Vienna malt, which was gifted to me by a homebrewer friend, and it's not really what you'd expect from a good authentic continental Vienna malt. It's unfortunate, but it's gotta get used.

[Bel Air Brewing]

I’ve been suffering from the wide help misconception that a Vienna Lager was a dark, or a darker beer. Much like a Negro Modelo. But after reading more on the actual history, and learning about the malt, and brewing 10 gallons with 100% Vienna Malt, my eyes (and taste buds) have been opened.

Again, this is one of the easiest drinking, smooth lagers that I have made. 5.4% ABV.

Very well balanced, with Tettnanger hops, and W-34/70 yeast. This beer won’t last long!

[Village Taphouse]

An article I read recently mentioned that Dreher and Sedlmayer traveled to England sometime in the 1830s.  Dreher had inherited a brewery from a family member at a young age.  Their trip to England was focused around a new way that the British were malting the grain... a way that did not use fire.  Prior to this, malted barley was malted and kilned using fire which gave most beer a smoky taste.  The British found a way around that and Dreher and Sedlmayer wanted to see this and attempt to duplicate it at home... Sedlmayer in Munich, Dreher in Vienna.  I have also heard that one reason that pilsner [eventually] unseated Vienna Lager as the more popular beer was because pilsner was pale-colored which was very new in those days.  That alone tells me that Dreher's first Vienna Lagers had at least SOME amount of color and were not just 100% Vienna malt.  If Vienna Malt is around 5°L, that would make a very pale beer and from everything I have seen, Dreher's beer looked to at least be in the 8-10 SRM range and many modern recipes for Vienna Lager emulate that.  I've seen a wide range of colors on Vienna Lagers but nothing less that about 7-8 SRM.  I agree... this is a good thread and fascinating primarily because I like the style. 

[Oiscout]

Good thread, fellas! Enjoyed the discussion so far. I am going to drop any debittered black malt addition in my future Vienna lagers. I currently have a sack of Munton's Vienna malt, which was gifted to me by a homebrewer friend, and it's not really what you'd expect from a good authentic continental Vienna malt. It's unfortunate, but it's gotta get used.

I've been using up to 3 pounds of vienna in ky "hefes" instead of pilsner if I have it on hand

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[Bel Air Brewing]

.....Dreher's first Vienna Lagers had at least SOME amount of color and were not just 100% Vienna malt.  If Vienna Malt is around 5°L, that would make a very pale beer and from everything I have seen, Dreher's beer looked to at least be in the 8-10 SRM range and many modern recipes for Vienna Lager emulate that.  I've seen a wide range of colors on Vienna Lagers but nothing less that about 7-8 SRM.

I want to see some info on the grain bill for the very first Vienna Lagers, that would show us what they would have brewed. My reading shows that 100% of the grain is acceptable (and desired) for the style. This info was posted here previously. No big deal, as we are free (for now) to brew what we want, how we want, when we want!

My effort was not to replicate an SRM color, but to produce a easy drinkable beer. My Vienna has an SRM of 6 or 7. Darker than a Pils, but not what any of us would consider a dark beer.

I did find this:

Back in Vienna...

Now at the helm of the Klein-Schwechat Brewery, Anton continued to experiment with the English way of kilning and created a slightly caramelised amber malt that he christened Vienna Malt. He combined that with traditional German lager yeast and in 1841 the Vienna Lager was born.

For about 60 years the Vienna Lager was popular, and gold-medal-winning, in Austria and other parts of Europe. Then it mysteriously disappeared completely after World War I. No one really knows why.

So during the mid 1800's perhaps Vienna Malt was kilned to a darker degree than modern examples?

[Village Taphouse]

Very tricky to tell because there is so much information.  THIS GUY is a fan of Vienna Lager and the picture looks a lot like I would expect a Vienna Lager to look like.  He is suggesting that a Vienna Lager can be mostly Vienna Malt but then "just enough of roasted malt to get the color right".  That could be Carafa... I see it mentioned in a number of recipes.  He also suggests that Vienna Malt can range from 2.5L to 7L (I almost always see it as 5L) and remember that in those days we could be talking about a decoction and we could also see a brewhouse where oxidation could play a part and oxidation can darken the color of the wort as can a decoction.  Just as anything else, a lot of variables in this style.  Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a beer with 100% Vienna Malt.  I have seen a number of homebrewers do this and I threaten to try it myself but never pull the trigger. 

[Bel Air Brewing]

Very tricky to tell because there is so much information.  THIS GUY is a fan of Vienna Lager and the picture looks a lot like I would expect a Vienna Lager to look like.  He is suggesting that a Vienna Lager can be mostly Vienna Malt but then "just enough of roasted malt to get the color right".  That could be Carafa... I see it mentioned in a number of recipes.  He also suggests that Vienna Malt can range from 2.5L to 7L (I almost always see it as 5L) and remember that in those days we could be talking about a decoction and we could also see a brewhouse where oxidation could play a part and oxidation can darken the color of the wort as can a decoction.  Just as anything else, a lot of variables in this style.  Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a beer with 100% Vienna Malt.  I have seen a number of homebrewers do this and I threaten to try it myself but never pull the trigger.

This makes sense. I may add just a touch of Carafa next time.

[denny]

Check out what Michael Jackson has to say about Vienna Lager in New World Guide to Beer

[fredthecat]

Very tricky to tell because there is so much information.  THIS GUY is a fan of Vienna Lager and the picture looks a lot like I would expect a Vienna Lager to look like.  He is suggesting that a Vienna Lager can be mostly Vienna Malt but then "just enough of roasted malt to get the color right".  That could be Carafa... I see it mentioned in a number of recipes.  He also suggests that Vienna Malt can range from 2.5L to 7L (I almost always see it as 5L) and remember that in those days we could be talking about a decoction and we could also see a brewhouse where oxidation could play a part and oxidation can darken the color of the wort as can a decoction.  Just as anything else, a lot of variables in this style.  Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a beer with 100% Vienna Malt.  I have seen a number of homebrewers do this and I threaten to try it myself but never pull the trigger.

but why would they feel a need to darken it in the 1800s? what is the point?

i'll be posting pics of my 95% vienna 5% munich malt lager soon. the colour so far is an orange around 5 SRM. from colour/tint alone you would not confuse this with a pilsner beer that had black malt added to reach 5 SRM

[erockrph]

I have to say I had a Pilsner on deck as my next brew, but I might just have to call an audible and swap out the pilsner malt for 100% Vienna after this discussion. It will probably be hitting its prime right around May 5th if I brew it in the next week or two.