[Nykademus]

I have read and watched folks speak to both pitching a started yeast at lager fermentation temps, and pitching direct and holding above 60f for a day to let the yeast take off.

Will the diacetyl rest clear up the off flavors if the latter is done?


I ask, because I have done just this thing. I pitched direct and held temp at 65f for a full 24 hours before cooling to around 46f.

This is also my first lager, so roast away if you wish. 

[ravenwater]

A disadvantage I've found to pitching warm where the yeast can begin to take off and then dropping the temperature is that the yeast will "stall" - slow their activity way down. In such I case I decided whatever time I thought I'd gain by pitching early I lost due to slowing the initial stage of fermentation. I'm interested to see what others say here.

[BrewBama]

I have used 34/70 and S-189 at 60-65*F. I did not perceive any off flavors.  I don’t know about other lager yeasts.

Many lager yeast upper temp range is 59*F. Now, if it was 15-20 degrees you might detect a different but  I don’t think  the yeast will react negatively to 1-6 degrees above that upper limit.

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[denny]

I have read and watched folks speak to both pitching a started yeast at lager fermentation temps, and pitching direct and holding above 60f for a day to let the yeast take off.

Will the diacetyl rest clear up the off flavors if the latter is done?


I ask, because I have done just this thing. I pitched direct and held temp at 65f for a full 24 hours before cooling to around 46f.

This is also my first lager, so roast away if you wish. 

If the yeast produces esters, a d rest won't clear them up.

[Village Taphouse]

I'm sure I have pitched lager yeast into 60° wort.  2124 or 34/70 (and maybe Lallemand Diamond) might be exempt from this because they can be used at higher temps from what I have heard... never tried that.  Once I pitch the fermenter goes into the fridge set to about 50° and my guess is that the temp drops into the 50-55° range before vigorous fermentation begins.  I'm sure it depends on the strain, the yeast health, the exact temp and the time spent at that temp.  I agree with Denny that a d-rest would not help with esters.

[RC]

One thing missing from the post is whether you observed signs of fermentation before dropping the temp. If the growth phase was well underway and a krausen was forming, it will probably be an estery lager--still probably enjoyable, it just won't have that lager cleanness to it. On the other hand, if you saw no signs, it's doubtful enough esters were created to be problematic.

[Nykademus]

I have used 34/70 and S-189 at 60-65*F. I did not perceive any off flavors.  I don’t know about other lager yeasts.

Many lager yeast upper temp range is 59*F. Now, if it was 15-20 degrees you might detect a different but  I don’t think  the yeast will react negatively to 1-6 degrees above that upper limit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I am using Omega OYL-107 on this run. (Yea, yea, I am way late on a fest beer.. or way early )

A disadvantage I've found to pitching warm where the yeast can begin to take off and then dropping the temperature is that the yeast will "stall" - slow their activity way down. In such I case I decided whatever time I thought I'd gain by pitching early I lost due to slowing the initial stage of fermentation. I'm interested to see what others say here.

I wondered about that too, but after cooling overnight It was still cooking along this morning. When I get home this evening will tell the tale I suppose.

I have read and watched folks speak to both pitching a started yeast at lager fermentation temps, and pitching direct and holding above 60f for a day to let the yeast take off.

Will the diacetyl rest clear up the off flavors if the latter is done?


I ask, because I have done just this thing. I pitched direct and held temp at 65f for a full 24 hours before cooling to around 46f.

This is also my first lager, so roast away if you wish. 

If the yeast produces esters, a d rest won't clear them up.

Would you expect esters to be created by doing so? Given the yeast listed above, and using an extract/steeping grain kit? (Provided that all other factors were optimal, as I believe that they were) Temps were all good throughout the cook, it was not overboiled, and O.G. was 1.059 when target was 1.058.

[Nykademus]

One thing missing from the post is whether you observed signs of fermentation before dropping the temp. If the growth phase was well underway and a krausen was forming, it will probably be an estery lager--still probably enjoyable, it just won't have that lager cleanness to it. On the other hand, if you saw no signs, it's doubtful enough esters were created to be problematic.

Yes, fermentation had started and krausen had started forming, although it was toward the end of that first warm stage. 

[denny]

I have used 34/70 and S-189 at 60-65*F. I did not perceive any off flavors.  I don’t know about other lager yeasts.

Many lager yeast upper temp range is 59*F. Now, if it was 15-20 degrees you might detect a different but  I don’t think  the yeast will react negatively to 1-6 degrees above that upper limit.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I am using Omega OYL-107 on this run. (Yea, yea, I am way late on a fest beer.. or way early )

A disadvantage I've found to pitching warm where the yeast can begin to take off and then dropping the temperature is that the yeast will "stall" - slow their activity way down. In such I case I decided whatever time I thought I'd gain by pitching early I lost due to slowing the initial stage of fermentation. I'm interested to see what others say here.

I wondered about that too, but after cooling overnight It was still cooking along this morning. When I get home this evening will tell the tale I suppose.

I have read and watched folks speak to both pitching a started yeast at lager fermentation temps, and pitching direct and holding above 60f for a day to let the yeast take off.

Will the diacetyl rest clear up the off flavors if the latter is done?


I ask, because I have done just this thing. I pitched direct and held temp at 65f for a full 24 hours before cooling to around 46f.

This is also my first lager, so roast away if you wish. 

If the yeast produces esters, a d rest won't clear them up.

Would you expect esters to be created by doing so? Given the yeast listed above, and using an extract/steeping grain kit? (Provided that all other factors were optimal, as I believe that they were) Temps were all good throughout the cook, it was not overboiled, and O.G. was 1.059 when target was 1.058.

No, I wouldn't necessarily expect esters.  But you know what Monty Python said about the Spanish Inquisition....

[rungdalek]

Cold pitching.

1.) Make a 2L starter from smack pack; refrigerate when done
2.) Make a 5L starter from decanted 2L starter; refrigerate when done
3.) Decant 5L starter and pitch into wort
4.) On each decant/pitch cycle, the yeast must be colder (ideally no more than 5-10F) than the wort being inoculated and the *final* wort being inoculated should be at the ideal starting fermentation temperature.

Fairly simple concept with excellent results!

[denny]

Cold pitching.

1.) Make a 2L starter from smack pack; refrigerate when done
2.) Make a 5L starter from decanted 2L starter; refrigerate when done
3.) Decant 5L starter and pitch into wort
4.) On each decant/pitch cycle, the yeast must be colder (ideally no more than 5-10F) than the wort being inoculated and the *final* wort being inoculated should be at the ideal starting fermentation temperature.

Fairly simple concept with excellent results!

That's certainly one way to do it, and I've done something similar many times.  But I've found that a standard SNS works equally well assuming a 6 gal. batch under 1.060 OG.

[rungdalek]

Cold pitching.

1.) Make a 2L starter from smack pack; refrigerate when done
2.) Make a 5L starter from decanted 2L starter; refrigerate when done
3.) Decant 5L starter and pitch into wort
4.) On each decant/pitch cycle, the yeast must be colder (ideally no more than 5-10F) than the wort being inoculated and the *final* wort being inoculated should be at the ideal starting fermentation temperature.

Fairly simple concept with excellent results!

That's certainly one way to do it, and I've done something similar many times.  But I've found that a standard SNS works equally well assuming a 6 gal. batch under 1.060 OG.

The concept of SNS does not allow it to be decanted or pitched cold, which sends you back to the previous problems, making an estery brew, etc...  SNS might be more appropriate for ales than lagers.

[denny]

Cold pitching.

1.) Make a 2L starter from smack pack; refrigerate when done
2.) Make a 5L starter from decanted 2L starter; refrigerate when done
3.) Decant 5L starter and pitch into wort
4.) On each decant/pitch cycle, the yeast must be colder (ideally no more than 5-10F) than the wort being inoculated and the *final* wort being inoculated should be at the ideal starting fermentation temperature.

Fairly simple concept with excellent results!

That's certainly one way to do it, and I've done something similar many times.  But I've found that a standard SNS works equally well assuming a 6 gal. batch under 1.060 OG.

The concept of SNS does not allow it to be decanted or pitched cold, which sends you back to the previous problems, making an estery brew, etc...  SNS might be more appropriate for ales than lagers.

Do I take this to mean you haven't tried it?

[rungdalek]

Cold pitching.

1.) Make a 2L starter from smack pack; refrigerate when done
2.) Make a 5L starter from decanted 2L starter; refrigerate when done
3.) Decant 5L starter and pitch into wort
4.) On each decant/pitch cycle, the yeast must be colder (ideally no more than 5-10F) than the wort being inoculated and the *final* wort being inoculated should be at the ideal starting fermentation temperature.

Fairly simple concept with excellent results!

That's certainly one way to do it, and I've done something similar many times.  But I've found that a standard SNS works equally well assuming a 6 gal. batch under 1.060 OG.

The concept of SNS does not allow it to be decanted or pitched cold, which sends you back to the previous problems, making an estery brew, etc...  SNS might be more appropriate for ales than lagers.

Do I take this to mean you haven't tried it?

Who hasn't tried SNS?  That's not the point. 

Making a starter is generally associated with warmer temperatures to encourage yeast population growth and thus requires the chill/decant/pitch cycle.

A SNS at lager temperatures (such that it can be pitched at lager temperatures) simply doesn't have those properties.

Given a 2L SNS starter (actively fermenting) at lager temperatures - you *might* ferment the wort but it won't match the cell density of the stepped up and decanted - cold pitch.

[denny]

Cold pitching.

1.) Make a 2L starter from smack pack; refrigerate when done
2.) Make a 5L starter from decanted 2L starter; refrigerate when done
3.) Decant 5L starter and pitch into wort
4.) On each decant/pitch cycle, the yeast must be colder (ideally no more than 5-10F) than the wort being inoculated and the *final* wort being inoculated should be at the ideal starting fermentation temperature.

Fairly simple concept with excellent results!

That's certainly one way to do it, and I've done something similar many times.  But I've found that a standard SNS works equally well assuming a 6 gal. batch under 1.060 OG.

The concept of SNS does not allow it to be decanted or pitched cold, which sends you back to the previous problems, making an estery brew, etc...  SNS might be more appropriate for ales than lagers.

Do I take this to mean you haven't tried it?

Who hasn't tried SNS?  That's not the point. 

Making a starter is generally associated with warmer temperatures to encourage yeast population growth and thus requires the chill/decant/pitch cycle.

A SNS at lager temperatures (such that it can be pitched at lager temperatures) simply doesn't have those properties.

Given a 2L SNS starter (actively fermenting) at lager temperatures - you *might* ferment the wort but it won't match the cell density of the stepped up and decanted - cold pitch.

Cell count doesn't really matter for SNS.  I have pitched 1 qt. SNS starters fermented at room temp into lager many times.  There were no issues due to it.  That's what I was wondering...if you've tried the same thing.