[UnequivocalBrewing]

ynotbrusum - This is where I'm leaning towards as well as I look back over time on my notes/recipes.  I used to do a 60-minute addition, 5-minute addition, and then a fairly sizable flameout.  However, that flameout addition was typically done in conjunction with immediate chilling.  As I started to experiment I've started shifting all the IBUs into the flameout/whirlpool addition.  As a result of that I am adding very large flameout additions to maintain similar IBUs in the recipe builder (Beersmith).  However, I have been doing a full 30 minute whirlpool and my kettle rarely falls below 200F in that time frame.  So, I don't think the tool is accurately calculating the IBUs in the flameout...because if you think about it a 30-minute whirlpool at 205-210 is not a whole lot different from a 30-minute boil addition and it's a TON of hops in there.  And add 15-18oz of pellet hops in 10 gallons for dry hopping I think that may have an impact as well.

[HoosierBrew]

There have been some interesting discussions around regarding bitterness extraction from late hop and dry hop additions.  I think it could be your culprit.  Most folks and spreadsheets assume a zero bitterness extraction with late/ flame out/whirlpool (at180 or below)/dry hopping, but that is proving not to be the case.

I agree for the most part. Late additions and flameout stands definitely add noticeable bitterness. Dry hopping has been shown to add some bitterness, more so on big dry hop additions. Cooler hopstands undoubtedly add some, but I don't notice it below a certain temp. Regardless, it's something for us to be considering, especially on beers like NE IPA where it's all about tons of late and dry additions.

[reverseapachemaster]

How does the FG of the latter two beers compare to previous beers? Bitterness and astringency are more easily noticed in a drier beer over a sweeter one.

[kramerog]

On the salt additions to the sparge water.  I have a HERMS coil in my HLT.  For the mashout I just increase the temp of the HLT while still recirculating.  Then after my mash has hit 168 I then push that 168F water from the HLT over for a continuous fly sparge until my boil kettle hits the right pre-boil volume.  There is always some water left in the HLT.  So would I treat the HLT water for the entire volume that I put in there?  For example, I usually put about 12 gallons of water in the HLT but typically only need to push over 6-7 for the sparge.

I would add the sparge salts to the entire sparge volume.  You can estimate the total sparge volume in advance so as not to dilute based on an estimated grain retention of 1 pint per gallon.

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[zwiller]

First off, I would try and seek out a BJCP to sample to get more accurate feedback.  Hopefully you have a local or ship to one of us.  This should help distinguish polyphenol/tannin astringency vs bitterness.  That said, based on your description, lingering/back of throat is harsh bitterness.  Classic for Columbus if you ask me.  Did you use Columbus in the successful beers?  IMO NE IPA should not have any high coho hops nor boil additions.  We can pick apart your process but it is actually pretty sound, including the 5.2 pH.  It is now fact these NE brewers deliberately lower the pH for this style, however, the acids used vary by the brewer, but honestly I citric would work well.  I would still double check your water tho, seems odd that your final pH was higher with the acid additions...

[neddles]

It is now fact these NE brewers deliberately lower the pH for this style...

Where did you get this as fact? Not doubting, just wondering. Also… lowering pH in the mash, kettle or final beer?

[zwiller]

HBT IIRC, but Kimmich has videos posted I guess.  Of course, many disputed this as a mash temp reading but he later confirmed it was room temp.  I do not recall if Kimmich offered advice on sparge, but I seem to recall there is another dose to boil. 

[denny]

Ok, I will be brewing in two days.  I think I am going to make the following changes:
1.  drop the citric acid
2.  add salts to the sparge water
3.  Acidify the sparge water to about 5.4

And then I'll measure the pre-boil PH.  What PH should I be on the look out for?  5.2-5.4, correct?

You could also try batch sparging if you aren't already.  It doesn't have the affect on pH that fly sparging has.

[Stevie]

^^ this made me think. Maybe you are over sparging? Do you know the gravity of the runnings at the end of sparge? Try sparging a bit less and topping off in kettle. Might take a minor efficiency hit, but worth it if the beer isn't bad.

[erockrph]

First off, I would try and seek out a BJCP to sample to get more accurate feedback.  Hopefully you have a local or ship to one of us.  This should help distinguish polyphenol/tannin astringency vs bitterness.  That said, based on your description, lingering/back of throat is harsh bitterness.  Classic for Columbus if you ask me.  Did you use Columbus in the successful beers?  IMO NE IPA should not have any high coho hops nor boil additions. 

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. Astringency and bitterness aren't usually the same thing. For NE IPA-style beers I usually just use a hop shot to get my bitterness, or whirlpool hot to get my IBU's there. And Columbus and Chinook are two hops I'd never use in this style.

[UnequivocalBrewing]

The FG has been consistently 1.014 down from 1.065 - roughly in line with Treehouse Julius.  I've found it harder to get to that 1.014 with Conan than I can with Yeast 1318.

On the Columbus, that's interesting.  I was wondering if I should switch that up but as I said before I only used 0.1 oz of Columbus at 60 minutes for a whopping 3 IBU.  I do that just to keep foaming down...not sure if it actually does anything.  And yes, I've been using Columbus (or CTZ) in all of these beers.  I'm pretty sure it's Trillium's bittering hop as well.

On the sparging comment, you may be right.  I used to be careful about adding ONLY the amount of sparge water from my HLT during my fly sparge.  However, recently I've just set the pump from MT to Kettle to roughly the same rate as the pump from the HLT to MT.  Then I just turn them both off when I've hit my pre-boil volume.  I may be transferring too much high PH (7.5) RO water into the Mash Tun and throwing off the PH.  Not sure about the final runnings of the mash...difficult to measure because it's getting pushed around with pumps.  I can measure it next time though.

As for the comment about NE IPAs and PH, it's interesting.  Bissell has some hand-written notes in their bathroom that show Substance getting Citric acid additions in the mash, sparge (last 40 gallons only), and kettle.  Targeting a mash PH of 5.37.  Not sure if the citric acid is there so much for dropping the PH of the beer or making the water chemistry right.

The BJCP suggestion is a great one.  I will keep that in mind for sure.  Thanks!

To net this out I think I may have a few things fighting against me:
1.  Big hop stands at too high of a temp
2.  Too large of a dry hop
3.  Too much sparge water

[natebriscoe]

The FG has been consistently 1.014 down from 1.065 - roughly in line with Treehouse Julius.  I've found it harder to get to that 1.014 with Conan than I can with Yeast 1318.

On the Columbus, that's interesting.  I was wondering if I should switch that up but as I said before I only used 0.1 oz of Columbus at 60 minutes for a whopping 3 IBU.  I do that just to keep foaming down...not sure if it actually does anything.  And yes, I've been using Columbus (or CTZ) in all of these beers.  I'm pretty sure it's Trillium's bittering hop as well.

On the sparging comment, you may be right.  I used to be careful about adding ONLY the amount of sparge water from my HLT during my fly sparge.  However, recently I've just set the pump from MT to Kettle to roughly the same rate as the pump from the HLT to MT.  Then I just turn them both off when I've hit my pre-boil volume.  I may be transferring too much high PH (7.5) RO water into the Mash Tun and throwing off the PH.  Not sure about the final runnings of the mash...difficult to measure because it's getting pushed around with pumps.  I can measure it next time though.

As for the comment about NE IPAs and PH, it's interesting.  Bissell has some hand-written notes in their bathroom that show Substance getting Citric acid additions in the mash, sparge (last 40 gallons only), and kettle.  Targeting a mash PH of 5.37.  Not sure if the citric acid is there so much for dropping the PH of the beer or making the water chemistry right.

The BJCP suggestion is a great one.  I will keep that in mind for sure.  Thanks!

To net this out I think I may have a few things fighting against me:
1.  Big hop stands at too high of a temp
2.  Too large of a dry hop
3.  Too much sparge water

If .1 Oz of any hop causes an astringency, there is a ph issue. A high preboil ph would tell you the the sparge is to alkaline or over sparged (which both are a high ph problem). Assuming the mash is what you think it is.   

[Stevie]

I don't think the ph of the RO is that big of a deal. The minerals in the mash will have a much bigger effect. I think you are over sparging. Stop a gallon short next batch and add that gallon straight to the kettle.

[natebriscoe]

Easy way to find out taste the wort before and after the first hop addition.
Acidification of the sparge water would minimize the effects of oversparging (which effects are caused by a high ph).

[ynotbrusum]

If the fear is the sparge, take some hydrometer readings as it runs off and stop if you reach 1.010, then adding the water straight to the kettle to get to the desired pre-boil volume.

Or as Denny says - do like him and batch sparge it (I do).