[tcanova]

On the Avery IPA recipe it only has .25 oz hops at 60 and approximately the same amount at 30 and the rest are all flameout additions.  Doesn't seem like that would produce enough bitterness or am I missing something?

[erockrph]

I wonder if they just scaled down their full recipe and didn't factor in their whirlpool. A 20-30 minute hot steep prior to chilling would probably approximate that, if that is indeed the case.

[tcanova]

Good point!  Hadn't thought of that but it makes sense.  A recipe is more than just the ingredients, it's also about the process.

[blatz]

I wonder if they just scaled down their full recipe and didn't factor in their whirlpool. A 20-30 minute hot steep prior to chilling would probably approximate that, if that is indeed the case.

I agree!

[narvin]

In fact, for a beer that's mostly flameout hops, you may want to do an even longer hop stand.  Most commercial breweries will take a lot longer than 30 minutes to whirlpool and completely drain the kettle.

Ray Daniels tested out 50 and 80 minutes and found that longer gave more flavor and aroma.

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2009/RDRM-BBB-ATRM1-Advanced%20Topics.pdf

[blatz]

interesting Chris.  *Sorry to derail this thread* but would you still do 80min if you were doing a hot recirculation of the wort (i.e. using Jamil's recirculation chiller without turning on the water yet) or would a shorter time period suffice?

[hopfenundmalz]

That was the Rock Bottom study. You still need dry hops for maximum aroma IIRC.

Adding hops at flameout and whirlpooling is something I have been doing for a couple of years for some styles. With the JZ return on the chiller, I whirlpool for 45 minutes. The temp is down to about 180F then for a 10 gallon batch. Large breweries will whirlpool and take maybe an hour to run throught the chiller, so a large part of the wort is above 180F for a long time.

I make a Cream Ale inspired by Pelican Pubs Kiwanda Cream ale, where all of the hops go in at flameout and are whirlpooled. It works for a beer like that.

[blatz]

Jeff

do you chill to 180-185 before starting the whirlpool (and turning off the chilling portion) or do you just start at boiling and let it fall over the 45min period?

Do you not recommend trying this method for say the Avery IPA clone? 

Just curious - again apologies for taking the thread in a different direction...

[tcanova]

No worries.  I am interested too!  Seems, if I am reading this correctly, that flame out additions with a long steep increases hop character. 

So how would you calculate hop utilization using this technique? 

Is this kind of the inverse of FWH?

Thank you for the link, interesting stuff!

[hopfenundmalz]

Jeff

do you chill to 180-185 before starting the whirlpool (and turning off the chilling portion) or do you just start at boiling and let it fall over the 45min period?

Do you not recommend trying this method for say the Avery IPA clone? 

Just curious - again apologies for taking the thread in a different direction...

Hops go in at flameout, no chilling until 45 minutes has past. This allows for some iso-AA development and flavors. At 45 minutes chill as usual.

Try it for the IPA. I have made the Union Jack clone from Can You Brew It, and there it uses some at 90 min. some hops at 30 minutes, a huge charge for the whirlpool, and then a big dry hop charge. Calculated at 50ish IBU, but the whirlpool will add 20 or 30 more.

Try it for your hoppy American beers. It is another tool one can use when brewing.

[hopfenundmalz]

No worries.  I am interested too!  Seems, if I am reading this correctly, that flame out additions with a long steep increases hop character. 

So how would you calculate hop utilization using this technique? 

Is this kind of the inverse of FWH?

Thank you for the link, interesting stuff!

I have been using 13% utilization from reading stuff on the internets. It might be less. Sometime I will send some beers in for analysis to see what I am really getting.

[jeffy]

I tried a couple of brews with a whirlpool addition for 20 minutes or so after chilling the wort to 100F and before chilling the rest of the way to pitching temps, thinking that it would retain some of the volatile hop oil aromas.  I'm not sure it added much, but I had nothing to actually compare it to.

[erockrph]

I tried a couple of brews with a whirlpool addition for 20 minutes or so after chilling the wort to 100F and before chilling the rest of the way to pitching temps, thinking that it would retain some of the volatile hop oil aromas.  I'm not sure it added much, but I had nothing to actually compare it to.

I've been thinking along these lines myself. I wonder if doing a rest just below the flash point of each/any of the major hop oils during chilling will boost hop character in the finished beer. On the flip side, I also wonder if oil extraction is temperature dependant as well. If I dry hop at 68F for 3-7 (or more) days to get the hop aroma I want, will a rest at 110F or 103F for only 30-60 minutes even make a difference? That's something I plan on experimenting with at some point.

For the IIPA I just brewed, I did 30-minute rests with hop additions at 170F, 110F and 103F. It's still in the fermenter, and I have no baseline to compare it to, but I figured I'd throw the kitchen sink at this one.

[blatz]

jeff - how do you set the utilization in Beersmith2 - having trouble...

[hopfenundmalz]

jeff - how do you set the utilization in Beersmith2 - having trouble...

This old guy uses Promash.

13% utilization is what I use, and if you look at the Tinseth utilization curves, which work pretty well for me, that is an 18 minute addition for a 1.050 beer. I think you would want to try differnet times in the progam vs wha you taste when the beer is brewed.

Tinseth look up table.
http://realbeer.com/hops/research.html