[denny]

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

im no expert on tannins or oak, etc.

but i was listening to an MBAA pdocast on oak with some oak barrel experts. they stated that french oak has an average of 10% tannins, american oak an average of 2%. then a minute later they said "american oak has a much harsher effect".

i dont directly connect tannin = harsh, but i thought it was so to a degree, or bitterness/astringency, etc

it confused me.

Tannins are definitely harsh in sufficient quantity. That's where the burn in hazy IPA comes from.

[denny]

For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

This makes sense. Chlorophyll is also pretty bitter, it's largely what makes certain vegetables so bitter. No doubt that is part of the "stuff" getting extracted as well.

I don't know that it's not,  but I've never seen chlorophyll mentioned in any research.

I still get a similar harshness out of Cryo hops (although not quite at the same intensity) when whirlpooled at 140F. If chlorophyll was a primary contributor, I would expect this character to be greatly diminished when using Cryo hops compared to traditional ones.

I'm surprised since the harshness comes from tannins in the bract and nearly all the bract has been removed from cryo.

[erockrph]

For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

This makes sense. Chlorophyll is also pretty bitter, it's largely what makes certain vegetables so bitter. No doubt that is part of the "stuff" getting extracted as well.

I don't know that it's not,  but I've never seen chlorophyll mentioned in any research.

I still get a similar harshness out of Cryo hops (although not quite at the same intensity) when whirlpooled at 140F. If chlorophyll was a primary contributor, I would expect this character to be greatly diminished when using Cryo hops compared to traditional ones.

I'm not sure I follow this logic. All that other "stuff" is in the vegetal part of the hops. Using cryo hops will commensurately scale down the amount of all of this stuff, not just chlorophyll.

If we haven't identified what all the "stuff" is, how can we be sure that it isn't coming from the lupulin? Ever taste unboiled hop shot? It has a very similar rough bitterness to what I get from whirlpool hops. I don't doubt that the vegetative matter contributes some harshness, but I'm not convinced that this is where all of it resides.

[denny]

For bittering only Nugget does a great job, I've used it a lot. Magnum does an equally great job for bittering only. My favorite bittering only hop is Horizon, super smooth because of low cohumulone levels, so you can lay in more bitterness without it getting harsh. Nugget has the advantage because you can also use it for later additions contributing some nice floral fruitiness, in my experience.

I think there's probably alot more to bittering quality than cohumulone levels

What is perhaps not realized or appreciated enough by a lot of brewers is that there is a lot more to perceived bitterness than just alpha (or beta) acids, period. If you have ever done a whirlpool steep in the ~120-140F range in an otherwise unhopped wort, you will taste quite a bit of bitterness in the final beer. This indicates that there is a lot of "stuff" in hops independent of the acids that add to perceived bitterness. I don't know what that stuff is, but I know it's there. I suspect it's this other "stuff" that is responsible for quality differences in perceived bitterness, rather than cohumulone levels.

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

This makes sense. Chlorophyll is also pretty bitter, it's largely what makes certain vegetables so bitter. No doubt that is part of the "stuff" getting extracted as well.

I don't know that it's not,  but I've never seen chlorophyll mentioned in any research.

I still get a similar harshness out of Cryo hops (although not quite at the same intensity) when whirlpooled at 140F. If chlorophyll was a primary contributor, I would expect this character to be greatly diminished when using Cryo hops compared to traditional ones.

I'm not sure I follow this logic. All that other "stuff" is in the vegetal part of the hops. Using cryo hops will commensurately scale down the amount of all of this stuff, not just chlorophyll.

If we haven't identified what all the "stuff" is, how can we be sure that it isn't coming from the lupulin? Ever taste unboiled hop shot? It has a very similar rough bitterness to what I get from whirlpool hops. I don't doubt that the vegetative matter contributes some harshness, but I'm not convinced that this is where all of it resides.

I doubt that hop shots are only lupulin. 

[Cliffs]

Mainly tannins.  One of the reasons I use Grainfather software is that it implements the mIBU formula which attempts to quantized those.

im no expert on tannins or oak, etc.

but i was listening to an MBAA pdocast on oak with some oak barrel experts. they stated that french oak has an average of 10% tannins, american oak an average of 2%. then a minute later they said "american oak has a much harsher effect".

i dont directly connect tannin = harsh, but i thought it was so to a degree, or bitterness/astringency, etc

it confused me.

dont get me started on the wine industry and its ridiculous bias against American Oak.

[Lazy Ant Brewing]

While you are mulling over the above I thought I would share my one and only experience with using Magnum for additions other than just bittering.  After being inspired by Brulosophy (https://brulosophy.com/2017/02/02/the-hop-chronicles-magnum/) I whipped up a simple Brown Ale, using Magnum for my bittering, flavor, and aroma additions.  I ranked the final beer as possibly the very worst of my creations, and vowed to never try that again.

But in reading about Nugget, it seems to have a more broad flavor profile that "may" present it to use for flavoring and aroma as well as bittering.  However, after my Magnum experience I'm leary to even consider venturing beyond bittering for Nugget.

Any thoughts on this as well?

I use magnum for all my porters and stouts,  and have liked it.  Is it possible that some other issue caused your dislike of the results?

[Silver_Is_Money]

Porters and Stouts do not to me represent the sort of beers that receive appreciable dosing of flavoring and/or aroma hop additions, let alone dry hop additions.  I consider Porters and Stouts to be nigh-on perfect candidates for Magnum hops, simply for the reason that these two styles (in my opinion, which likely reflects my age) are well suited to mainly bittering only hop additions.

[4dogbrewer]

I agree that Horizon is a great bittering hop, but hard to get in Canada.