[amanosz]

I have a handful of all-grain mini-BIAB brews under my belt with good results and I'm interested in trying my hand at my first lager.  I'm going to break out my new temperature controller (thanks Santa!) and a garage chest freezer. I don't particularly like the high-malt styles, so I'm going to try with either a Bohemian or German Pilsner. I'd like feedback on: i) my brewing plan and ii) if either style is more compatible with my current water profile (not open to building up from RO water for this batch) and iii) if either style is more forgiving to first-time lagering mistakes (I know both will have off-flavors easily detectable, but perhaps the sweetness of the Bohemian might be able to cover up a little bit, vs the German being more of a "blank slate"?)

Base water profile (after sodium metabisulfite addition to eliminate 3ppm chloramine, unfortunately potassium salt isn't available): 12ppm Ca, 4ppm Mg, 16ppm Na, 12ppm Cl, 24 ppm SO4, 42 ppm alkalinity (CaCO3 equivalent)

Using EZ Water, I am aiming for final water profiles, both of which seem compatible with my starting water profile, though I'm open to feedback here):
For the Bohemian: 20ppm Ca, 4ppm Mg, 16ppm Na, 26 ppm Cl, 24ppm SO4, mash pH 5.5, RA of -107 (any concerns here?  trying to keep as minimal as possible while hitting the pH target)
For the German (based on Kai's water profile): 56ppm Ca, 9ppm Mg, 16 ppm Na, 67ppm Cl, 78ppm SO4, mash pH 5.5, RA of -103

For the Bohemian, I'm following the Morebeer.com Bohemian recipe, scaled down to a 2.5 gallon batch:
5.5 lb  pilsner malt
4 oz Crystal 15L
4 oz Carapils
Mash at 153
1 oz Saaz for 60 min
1 oz same for 10 min
1 oz same for 1 min
Whirfloc and Wyeast nutrient for 5 min


For the German, I'm following the homebrewsupply.com German recipe, also scaled down, but adding a bit more hops so as not to waste a 2 oz pack:
4.5 lb Pilsner malt
4 oz Carapils
Mash at 149
1 oz Hallertau Mitelfruh for 60 min
0.5 oz same for 15 min
0.5 oz same for 1 min
Whirfloc and Wyeast nutrient for 5 min


For both:
Pitch 2x11.5g packets of W34/70 (not open to liquid yeast for this batch)
Primary at 50F for 2 weeks (longer if necessary), with a 2 day diacetyl rest at 65F
Secondary at 34C for 8 weeks, with gelatin fining for last two days (I'm willing to wait to reduce off-flavors during lagering, and I want to go for as clear a beer as possible)
Bottle condition with dextrose for 3-4 weeks or more at 68F, adding a small amount of US-05 due to long lagering and fining.  (Could I get away with T-58 or S-33 belgian ale yeast for bottle conditioning to save a few bucks at my LHBS?)

[Oiscout]

I just did a 2.5 gallon batch of munich Dunkel and it hit FG at 4 days at 50 degrees.

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[dmtaylor]

Welcome to the forum!  This is the best "first post" I think I've ever seen, wow!  It will be a pleasure to have you join us here I'm sure.

I'll just provide specific feedback from my own perspective in a somewhat bulletized fashion:

Drop the Crystal 15 from the Bohemian.  It doesn't belong in the style, and definitely not at as much as 4 oz in a 2.5 gallon batch.

Personally I'd also swap the Carapils for more base malt, as it doesn't really do what anybody says it does.  It doesn't hurt anything, but doesn't help anything either.

Both recipes look good but will need acid to get the pH down where you want it.  You can add any acid you like (heh, I use vinegar! works great and I always have plenty), or you can try to figure out how much acidulated malt to add.  With your soft water, if you go that route, you would probably need to use acidulated malt for 3% of the grist to get from 5.8 down to 5.5 (reduction of 0.1 per percent), so that might be 3 ounces for the Bohemian and 2 ounces for the German, approximately.

One pack of W-34/70 yeast is PLENTY for 2.5 gallons.  I might even try 1/2 pack but go ahead and use 1 pack if you like.  2 packs is a significant overpitch.

You might find you don't need a diacetyl rest at all.  If after the first few days you cannot smell (or taste, if applicable) diacetyl, you could skip the rest.  However I'd do it for insurance anyway, it definitely doesn't hurt.

The timing of the diacetyl rest should not be based on actual number of days, but rather based on an SG reading after say 3-4 days into the fermentation or as needed.  When specific gravity points to the right of the decimal point is half of what you started with (e.g., 1.050 goes to 1.025) then that is the perfect time to initiate the diacetyl rest.  Yeast eats diacetyl and you want the yeast active when they eat it, otherwise they'll still eat it later but will be more sluggish and it could take 3 weeks instead of 3 days.

You don't need to rack to secondary, it is optional, and don't need 8 weeks.  About 2-3 weeks should be plenty of lagering time.  Gelatin at the end is a great idea, it can help a lot IF there is any haze, and if not you can skip it.  The only time I've had to condition much longer was for K-97 yeast, that one is super sluggish to settling, even worse than 2565 which takes about 6 weeks.  Heh... and those are ale yeasts!

Do not add any more yeast for conditioning, and absolutely do not use an ale yeast in combination with lager yeast!  There is PLENTY of yeast left after lagering to finish natural carbonation in the bottles, I know, I've bottled about 160 batches since 1999.  It takes many many months of conditioning for the yeast to die off.  Over just a couple of months, you won't need to add any more yeast, I promise you.  If conditioning longer than say 3 months (which is NOT necessary), then I would add a little more of the same W-34/70 at that point, but not any other kind of yeast.  But just don't condition that long, and you won't have to.

[jeffy]

Dave, this is the best reply to a post I've seen maybe ever.  You started with a compliment and then explained everything point by point.  Thanks for being on the forum.

[dmtaylor]

Dave, this is the best reply to a post I've seen maybe ever.  You started with a compliment and then explained everything point by point.  Thanks for being on the forum.

Why thank you Jeff!  I am in fact flawed, in that I spend entirely too much time on forums like this one.   

Cheers!

[majorvices]

//HUGS//

[dmtaylor]

//HUGS//

Keith, I love you so much I think I'm gonna puke.   

[fredthecat]

For the Bohemian,

1 oz Saaz for 60 min
1 oz same for 10 min
1 oz same for 1 min
Whirfloc and Wyeast nutrient for 5 min


For the German,
1 oz Hallertau Mitelfruh for 60 min
0.5 oz same for 15 min
0.5 oz same for 1 min
Whirfloc and Wyeast nutrient for 5 min

check your IBUs i think, saaz and hallertau's AA% can vary a fair bit and if you end up with 2% AA saaz, you;ll end up with very low IBUs for the style you want imho.


there are online IBU calculators or you could use brewtarget or other free brewing calculation software

[dmtaylor]

there are online IBU calculators or you could use brewtarget or other free brewing calculation software

Here's the Taylor formula:

IBU = oz * AA% * sqrt(5*Boiltime)/V

where Boiltime is in minutes and V is in U.S. gallons.  Calculate for each hop addition, then add them all together.  Should get you close within 5 IBUs of Tinseth, pretty close approximation and easy to memorize.  Try it, you'll see.  You're welcome. 

[amanosz]

Welcome to the forum!  This is the best "first post" I think I've ever seen, wow!  It will be a pleasure to have you join us here I'm sure.

Thanks! I've been reading threads on here for a while and looking forward to posting more.  Thank you also for the very nice and detailed reply and suggestions!

I'll just provide specific feedback from my own perspective in a somewhat bulletized fashion:

Drop the Crystal 15 from the Bohemian.  It doesn't belong in the style, and definitely not at as much as 4 oz in a 2.5 gallon batch.

Personally I'd also swap the Carapils for more base malt, as it doesn't really do what anybody says it does.  It doesn't hurt anything, but doesn't help anything either.

Good to know.  I was just following recipes from commercially available kits.  Are you recommending swapping out Carapils on both recipes or just the Bohemian?

Both recipes look good but will need acid to get the pH down where you want it.  You can add any acid you like (heh, I use vinegar! works great and I always have plenty), or you can try to figure out how much acidulated malt to add.  With your soft water, if you go that route, you would probably need to use acidulated malt for 3% of the grist to get from 5.8 down to 5.5 (reduction of 0.1 per percent), so that might be 3 ounces for the Bohemian and 2 ounces for the German, approximately.

Yes, I'll be adjusting with lactic acid based on EZ Water calculations

One pack of W-34/70 yeast is PLENTY for 2.5 gallons.  I might even try 1/2 pack but go ahead and use 1 pack if you like.  2 packs is a significant overpitch.

This is something I've struggled with.  Based on a couple of yeast pitching calculators I've tried (most recently on brewersfriend.com), a single packet does not appear to be enough.  But then there have been a number of suggestions, here and elsewhere that 1 pack is sufficient for a 2.5gal batch. Is there something I'm not considering with these calculators?  Or better yet, could I even get away with a single liquid yeast pack? I'm not yet ready to invest in equipment to make starter cultures.

You might find you don't need a diacetyl rest at all.  If after the first few days you cannot smell (or taste, if applicable) diacetyl, you could skip the rest.  However I'd do it for insurance anyway, it definitely doesn't hurt.

The timing of the diacetyl rest should not be based on actual number of days, but rather based on an SG reading after say 3-4 days into the fermentation or as needed.  When specific gravity points to the right of the decimal point is half of what you started with (e.g., 1.050 goes to 1.025) then that is the perfect time to initiate the diacetyl rest.  Yeast eats diacetyl and you want the yeast active when they eat it, otherwise they'll still eat it later but will be more sluggish and it could take 3 weeks instead of 3 days.

Good to know.  Thanks!

You don't need to rack to secondary, it is optional, and don't need 8 weeks.  About 2-3 weeks should be plenty of lagering time.  Gelatin at the end is a great idea, it can help a lot IF there is any haze, and if not you can skip it.  The only time I've had to condition much longer was for K-97 yeast, that one is super sluggish to settling, even worse than 2565 which takes about 6 weeks.  Heh... and those are ale yeasts!

My thought on the 8 week lagering stage was that aside from settling the yeast, lagering helps with conditioning of off-flavors.  At least what I've read for these styles of beers, the long lagering can help with this.  Any thoughts on this point?  In any case, I suppose I can taste a small amount to check how it's doing. 

Do not add any more yeast for conditioning, and absolutely do not use an ale yeast in combination with lager yeast!  There is PLENTY of yeast left after lagering to finish natural carbonation in the bottles, I know, I've bottled about 160 batches since 1999.  It takes many many months of conditioning for the yeast to die off.  Over just a couple of months, you won't need to add any more yeast, I promise you.  If conditioning longer than say 3 months (which is NOT necessary), then I would add a little more of the same W-34/70 at that point, but not any other kind of yeast.  But just don't condition that long, and you won't have to.

Good to know. I had read mixed reviews on incomplete carbonation after a long lager (even 8 weeks) and fining, which is why I was considering it.  I certainly agree it's not necessary for a shorter lager. 

For future reference, if I ever needed to reserve bit of the dry yeast from the packet I pitched with for bottle conditioning, do you think the yeast will keep in a sterile sealed container in the fridge?  I see that 10 days is the recommended max time, but not sure if that is due to sterility concerns or contact with air

[dmtaylor]

Are you recommending swapping out Carapils on both recipes or just the Bohemian?

Both.  All.  Every recipe under the sun.  Carapils is fine and good, tastes fine, doesn't hurt anything.  But it also doesn't do anything special at all.  It does not change body or head retention for the better, and some say it might even make it worse (I don't believe that but it's out there).

Based on a couple of yeast pitching calculators I've tried (most recently on brewersfriend.com), a single packet does not appear to be enough.  But then there have been a number of suggestions, here and elsewhere that 1 pack is sufficient for a 2.5gal batch. Is there something I'm not considering with these calculators?  Or better yet, could I even get away with a single liquid yeast pack? I'm not yet ready to invest in equipment to make starter cultures.

A single liquid yeast pack is risky, even for just 2.5 gallons.  But dried yeast is extremely reliable and shelf stable.  All the calculators seem to assume fewer viable cells than actually exist.  Here is the rabbit hole to fall down into if you are interested:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27438.msg361722#msg361722

My thought on the 8 week lagering stage was that aside from settling the yeast, lagering helps with conditioning of off-flavors.  At least what I've read for these styles of beers, the long lagering can help with this.  Any thoughts on this point?  In any case, I suppose I can taste a small amount to check how it's doing. 

Lagering does help.  But you might not need 8 weeks.  Take a taste after just 2 weeks and see where it is.  You might find you only need 2 weeks, or maybe 3 or 4.  But I think it's best to lager based on taste, not based on a strict timeline, unless you are very very patient, which is fine too!  Just if you wait too long, then you would indeed want to add more yeast... more of the SAME yeast...

I had read mixed reviews on incomplete carbonation after a long lager (even 8 weeks) and fining, which is why I was considering it.  I certainly agree it's not necessary for a shorter lager. 

For future reference, if I ever needed to reserve bit of the dry yeast from the packet I pitched with for bottle conditioning, do you think the yeast will keep in a sterile sealed container in the fridge?  I see that 10 days is the recommended max time, but not sure if that is due to sterility concerns or contact with air

Yes, I often keep a partial packet of dried yeast in the refrigerator like this, even for several years, haven't had any significant problems doing this.  Just use good sanitation practices and it will be fine.

Speaking of which....... IF you find yourself lagering for a very long time, say 3 months or more, and you want to repitch more yeast, be aware that in my experience... you'll only need about 1 gram of new yeast (assuming dried).  It doesn't take much to eat your priming sugar and result in proper natural carbonation.  No need to add an entire packet or even 1/2.  Just a little.

Cheers, enjoy.

[BrewBama]

For future reference, if I ever needed to reserve bit of the dry yeast from the packet I pitched with for bottle conditioning, do you think the yeast will keep in a sterile sealed container in the fridge?  I see that 10 days is the recommended max time, but not sure if that is due to sterility concerns or contact with air

If you vacuum seal the opened pack of dried yeast and keep it cold, the yeast is good until the expiration date.  I have been using the same 500g brick for several months now.

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/LAL-bestpractices_premium_yeats_-_shelf_life_and_storage.pdf

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[fredthecat]

there are online IBU calculators or you could use brewtarget or other free brewing calculation software

Here's the Taylor formula:

IBU = oz * AA% * sqrt(5*Boiltime)/V

where Boiltime is in minutes and V is in U.S. gallons.  Calculate for each hop addition, then add them all together.  Should get you close within 5 IBUs of Tinseth, pretty close approximation and easy to memorize.  Try it, you'll see.  You're welcome. 

um. i hope this isn't a stupid question, but is that your formula?

[dmtaylor]

there are online IBU calculators or you could use brewtarget or other free brewing calculation software

Here's the Taylor formula:

IBU = oz * AA% * sqrt(5*Boiltime)/V

where Boiltime is in minutes and V is in U.S. gallons.  Calculate for each hop addition, then add them all together.  Should get you close within 5 IBUs of Tinseth, pretty close approximation and easy to memorize.  Try it, you'll see.  You're welcome. 

um. i hope this isn't a stupid question, but is that your formula?

Not a stupid question.  Yes sir, that's mine.  It's not exact and isn't exactly based on science, but is just something nifty I discovered kind of by accident after fiddling with a few numbers in my spare time because I enjoy math.  It's pretty dang close to reality though, even though not exact.  Tinseth is still more accurate.  Mine is like a simplified Tinseth.

FYI, it also works for whirlpool (a.k.a. hop stand) hops.  Just change the 5 to a 2, and enter the whirlpool time instead of boil time.

There's some more info out there if you are interested.  Actually I developed not just one but two methods.  See:

https://live.staticflickr.com/7891/45991029004_df99d89bc1_o.png

[fredthecat]

there are online IBU calculators or you could use brewtarget or other free brewing calculation software

Here's the Taylor formula:

IBU = oz * AA% * sqrt(5*Boiltime)/V

where Boiltime is in minutes and V is in U.S. gallons.  Calculate for each hop addition, then add them all together.  Should get you close within 5 IBUs of Tinseth, pretty close approximation and easy to memorize.  Try it, you'll see.  You're welcome. 

um. i hope this isn't a stupid question, but is that your formula?

Not a stupid question.  Yes sir, that's mine.  It's not exact and isn't exactly based on science, but is just something nifty I discovered kind of by accident after fiddling with a few numbers in my spare time because I enjoy math.  It's pretty dang close to reality though, even though not exact.  Tinseth is still more accurate.  Mine is like a simplified Tinseth.

FYI, it also works for whirlpool (a.k.a. hop stand) hops.  Just change the 5 to a 2, and enter the whirlpool time instead of boil time.

There's some more info out there if you are interested.  Actually I developed not just one but two methods.  See:

https://live.staticflickr.com/7891/45991029004_df99d89bc1_o.png

much appreciated, we sometimes forget that once people had to figure this stuff out before brew-calc programs proliferated. thanks