[BrewinProf]

Hi everyone,

Long time lurker here.  I did an experiment with different hop varieties and came up with disappointing results.  Started with a mash for a 10 gallon batch, then prior to the boil I split the wort into two 5 gallon batches of Hazy/NE IPA.  In one batch I used a mix of Idaho 7 and Mosaic hops, in the other I used Citra and Lemondrop.  Equal amounts of hops were used in both batches, with 2 ounces given at flameout, 3 ounces at whirlpool, and 4 ounces as dry hop (9 ounces total per 5 gallon batch).  While I expected a nice contrast between the two hop profiles, with the first being more dank and the second being more fruity, I'm surprised to find that they are very hard to tell apart.  Any thoughts?

[erockrph]

I have similar thoughts about some commercial NEIPAs. My hypothesis is that there is a saturation point for hop oils in beer (or on the palate), so once you hit the max amount of linalool, citronellol, etc., adding more hops doesn't lead to more of that terpene dissolved in the beer. The flavor characteristics of each hop variety are determined by the relative concentrations of each of these oils. But as each of these approach maximum the relative concentration (or flavor impact) of each oil hits a fixed value and you end up with a beer that tastes very similar to other beers with maxed out hop oils, even if it was very different hops used to get to that maximum. Sort of like an audio signal that gets turned up to the point of clipping.

The other thing that may be happening is that the yeast could be biotransforming the hop oils, leading to a similar final product despite different inputs.

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[chinaski]

I agree in some regards.  If the goal is gain an understanding of different hop combinations, then perhaps a more traditional hoppy ale might do this better.  If the goal is to make hazy IPA, then you've learned something valuable to you, no?  I think it is Scott Janish who proposed that you might be able to use combinations of less-expensive, older-school hops- "cheater hops" - to accomplish the high oil/aroma goals of a hazy IPA.  I'm sure those ideas are likely in his book and/or his blog.

[Oiscout]

Currently reading "the new IPA" I would check it out might give you some pertinent information to your dilemma.

The section on aroma hops is indispensable

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[RC]

Unless you're using very non-mainstream IPA hops, all hazies taste pretty much the same and are completely interchangeable as far as I'm concerned. I've used just about every possible combo of every possible IPA hop (a tongue-in-cheek claim, I confess, but only sort of), and they always taste the same. Sigh. I've stopped going down that rabbit hole.

[erockrph]

Unless you're using very non-mainstream IPA hops, all hazies taste pretty much the same and are completely interchangeable as far as I'm concerned. I've used just about every possible combo of every possible IPA hop (a tongue-in-cheek claim, I confess, but only sort of), and they always taste the same. Sigh. I've stopped going down that rabbit down.

I burned myself out a few years back as well. I got caught up in trying to get more and more hop flavor in my beer, but at some point I think I pushed it too far and ended up in a hopeless chase. At some point I'll take the quest back up, but I think my sweet spot is somewhere just lower than that maxed out hazy character.

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[BrewinProf]

Thanks everyone for all the input.  Yep, my initial theory was that I've reached a saturation point where all the hop flavor and aroma is maximized to the point of covering up any differences between the hop varieties.  However, do you all think it is the method of how the hops are added (mostlly whirlpool and dry hops), or is it strictly an amount issue?  My first thought was to repeat the experiment and drop the amounts by half to see if that helps to make a distinction between the beers. 

Also Oiscout thanks for the book reference.  I ordered "The New IPA" and it should be delivered in a few days.

[RC]

Thanks everyone for all the input.  Yep, my initial theory was that I've reached a saturation point where all the hop flavor and aroma is maximized to the point of covering up any differences between the hop varieties.  However, do you all think it is the method of how the hops are added (mostlly whirlpool and dry hops), or is it strictly an amount issue?  My first thought was to repeat the experiment and drop the amounts by half to see if that helps to make a distinction between the beers. 

Also Oiscout thanks for the book reference.  I ordered "The New IPA" and it should be delivered in a few days.

Dropping your amounts by half will likely make a very boring IPA from a hoppiness perspective.

My advice is to focus on the dry hops, and use at least 3 lb/bbl (1.5 oz/gal). Some might cry foul and cite Dr. Shellhammer's research as "proof" that anything over 2 lbs/bbl is problematic. I would counter that his lab results don't neatly translate to my garage results.

I respect experimentation, but I might suggest not making beer that you may not want to drink solely for the sake of experimentation.

You mentioned you were disappointed with the results, but how were those IPAs? Did you enjoy them?

[BrewinProf]

Dropping your amounts by half will likely make a very boring IPA from a hoppiness perspective.

My advice is to focus on the dry hops, and use at least 3 lb/bbl (1.5 oz/gal). Some might cry foul and cite Dr. Shellhammer's research as "proof" that anything over 2 lbs/bbl is problematic. I would counter that his lab results don't neatly translate to my garage results.

I respect experimentation, but I might suggest not making beer that you may not want to drink solely for the sake of experimentation.

You mentioned you were disappointed with the results, but how were those IPAs? Did you enjoy them?

Yes, very enjoyable but not perceptably different, thereby not meeting my goal of expanding the variety of Hazys I have on tap.  You are correct though that it would be a much greater disappointment to end up with undrinkable IPA.  So you think that I would get better results by shifting some of the hotside hops to the fermenter?  Or just adding more dry hops without decreasing the hotside portions?

[RC]

Dropping your amounts by half will likely make a very boring IPA from a hoppiness perspective.

My advice is to focus on the dry hops, and use at least 3 lb/bbl (1.5 oz/gal). Some might cry foul and cite Dr. Shellhammer's research as "proof" that anything over 2 lbs/bbl is problematic. I would counter that his lab results don't neatly translate to my garage results.

I respect experimentation, but I might suggest not making beer that you may not want to drink solely for the sake of experimentation.

You mentioned you were disappointed with the results, but how were those IPAs? Did you enjoy them?

Yes, very enjoyable but not perceptably different, thereby not meeting my goal of expanding the variety of Hazys I have on tap.  You are correct though that it would be a much greater disappointment to end up with undrinkable IPA.  So you think that I would get better results by shifting some of the hotside hops to the fermenter?  Or just adding more dry hops without decreasing the hotside portions?

Not necessarily undrinkable, just boring, with little hop character. The dry hops are far more important to an IPA than the hot-side hops, hence my suggestion to focus more on the dry hops. I would up the dry hops to the 3 lbs/bbl range. You will of course lose more beer, which is the downside, but you'll get noticeably more hop punch. I've gone as high as 4 lbs/bbl without getting unpleasant tea/grassy notes, but this beer was only ~10% hoppier than 3 lbs/bbl (you definitely get diminishing returns on how much oil dissolves), so it wasn't worth it. What you do on the hot side won't matter very much if you go big on the dry hops.

[denny]

I have similar thoughts about some commercial NEIPAs. My hypothesis is that there is a saturation point for hop oils in beer (or on the palate), so once you hit the max amount of linalool, citronellol, etc., adding more hops doesn't lead to more of that terpene dissolved in the beer. The flavor characteristics of each hop variety are determined by the relative concentrations of each of these oils. But as each of these approach maximum the relative concentration (or flavor impact) of each oil hits a fixed value and you end up with a beer that tastes very similar to other beers with maxed out hop oils, even if it was very different hops used to get to that maximum. Sort of like an audio signal that gets turned up to the point of clipping.

The other thing that may be happening is that the yeast could be biotransforming the hop oils, leading to a similar final product despite different inputs.

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You are exactly correct.  Shellhammer's research has identified 8 gr./L as the maximum dry hop load before you start getting diminished effects.